[00:00:00] Esther: Hi everyone, Esther here with a quick pre-episode update. Navaar and I are so excited to share our thoughts on the Pathfinder Remaster with you all. We’ve been digging into the Player Core and GM core, and I know we both have a lot of thoughts to share, and also folks we want to have on the show to talk about the Remaster.
Unfortunately, we’ve had a really difficult run of luck in getting our first Remaster episode recorded: scheduling woes, illness, all of that not-fun stuff. We were scheming basically up until the last minute to see if we could pull together a Remaster episode for this week, and at the end of the day, we knew we couldn’t bring you the quality of episode we want to deliver to our listeners. Rather than feel like we got you a scrambled episode, we decided to take just a little more time to pull things together in a way that feels like it’ll highlight the material we want to cover in all the ways it deserves.
All that said, you will be hearing from us about the Remaster soon! And we encourage you to check out other shows and hosts and blogs on the Know Direction Network that are highlighting Remaster material right now. There are so many voices bringing great perspectives about the new Player and GM cores, and we encourage you to seek all of those voices out in addition to ours.
Now, the part of this update that I’m really excited to deliver: I am delighted to be able to share with you an interview we did a little while ago with the intention of saving for a rainy day, knowing it would be a gift to us and our listeners when we aired it.
This episode features someone who I’ve wanted to interview literally ever since I knew I was going to be a co host of this show. And I won’t keep you in suspense any longer. Let’s get into it.
[00:01:41] Esther: Hello and welcome to Know, Direction, your number one source for Pathfinder news reviews, and interviews. I’m Esther.
[00:02:08] Navaar: And I’m Navaar.
[00:02:09] Esther: Today we have a guest we are really so excited to talk to. Actually, I don’t know if they know this, but they’re like one of the first people Navaar and I were like, we got to have them on the show — Avi Kool, the Lead Editor at Paizo! Avi, welcome to Know Direction.
[00:02:25] Avi: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:27] Navaar: Yeah, welcome. Uh, yes, truly, genuinely very excited to talk to you. So,
[00:02:31] Esther: Yeah.
[00:02:32] Avi: I’m really excited as well.
[00:02:33] Navaar: Where we always like to get started is how did you get into Pathfinder?
[00:02:39] Avi: Yeah, good question. So, I played D&D and a few other games, um, when I was younger. But I got into Pathfinder specifically through a good friend of mine who had been playing organized play, PFS, for a really long time and finally was like, “I’m going to start my own game.” And I was maybe 24 at the time.
And she started a game of Shattered Star. And I played a half-orc fighter with a Gladiator background. And that was such a fun experience. And I really enjoyed all of the, like, ins and outs of the adventure, and I really fell in love with the way that Pathfinder stories are told, both mechanically and narratively.
And I stopped playing all the other games I was playing, basically, and just kind of devoted myself to Pathfinder.
[00:03:40] Navaar: That’s awesome. How, what level did you get up to in that game?
[00:03:42] Avi: We only finished the first book before we had a person who was a little bit difficult end up leaving the game. And that was a shame, because I really wanted to continue with it. But we ended up playing some Mummy’s Mask after that, which I’m now replaying as a Second Edition game. There’s a conversion on Reddit that we’re using for Mummy’s Mask to do Second Edition, and we’ve made it through the, we’re halfway through the third book now, so making good progress on that campaign.
[00:04:15] Navaar: That’s awesome.
[00:04:16] Esther: Nice.
[00:04:17] Avi: Yeah, it’s going well. I was just gonna say real quick, I’m playing a Monk in that one.
[00:04:22] Esther: Oh, sweet.
[00:04:23] Avi: Mmhmm.
[00:04:24] Navaar: Another fantastic option.
[00:04:25] Esther: Yes. So I kind of like to follow up our first question with, how did you get from being a Pathfinder fan to working at Paizo?
[00:04:34] Navaar: Mm.
[00:04:34] Avi: Yeah, good question. I opened the book for the Core Rulebook and noticed it had this huge paragraph of editors, and editing was what I really wanted to get into. Like, I wanted to work on fiction. That was kind of my original plan. I went to school for editing. First off, I went to school for theatre and then I ended up dropping out and went many years without going back to school. But, four or five years later, I started an editing career path, realized that Paizo puts out books, books require editors. And Pathfinder, and — or, and Paizo is based in Redmond. Which, I lived in Seattle. Redmond is a 45 minute drive. And I’m like, if I could make this work, this would be kind of perfect.
So I go to the website, go to the Careers page, and there’s an editor job listing at that moment. And I was like, this is fate. So I had just graduated college two months earlier. And I send in an application, I get an interview. I was interviewed by Judy Bauer, the former Managing Editor who now works at Wizards of the Coast. And she is so awesome. She, like, we had a connection. And, uh, she told me that, like, the job had required more experience than I had because I was fresh out of school, but that they wanted to take me as a temp, because we were working on the Pathfinder playtest for Second Edition at that time.
[00:06:11] Navaar: Nice.
[00:06:12] Avi: So she brought me on as a temp, and I did two different temp gigs that first year, and had an amazing, amazing experience. So I kept on saying, like, “if you need me back, I’m here. I will drop everything to make this happen.” I did a couple more temp gigs the following year, and then as soon as there was an opening on the team, they called me. And I quit my job and switched to doing that full time.
So that was my journey, how I ended up at Paizo. It was really a lot of luck.
[00:06:44] Navaar: Yeah. Luck, but I mean — luck, but hard work and perseverance.
[00:06:48] Avi: Yes. Yeah.
[00:06:49] Navaar: Always need a dash of that too, for sure.
[00:06:52] Avi: For sure.
[00:06:52] Navaar: Amazing. So yeah, so coming in right into Second Edition as a player who played and enjoyed First Edition, what was that like to like get in, and sort of see that from the editing standpoint of those early documents and those early playtests?
[00:07:08] Avi: I thought they were fascinating. A lot of the things in the early playtest are a little bit fuzzy in the back of my mind because it’s been a while and we have —
[00:07:17] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:07:18] Avi: — revised so many things from the playtest, but I remember the three action economy blew me away right away. Like, look at all the possibilities this opens up for the game.
I was impressed by character creation right away. And I was impressed by the trait system, even though that was laid out differently in the playtest than it would eventually, look in the final version. But those three things right away, I was so excited by them. I was not one of those people who was sad about the end First Edition, because I knew there were so many Adventure Paths that I hadn’t played, and if I wanted to play a First Edition Adventure Path, I could still do that.
And I was just really excited to embrace the playtest and Second Edition. I worked on Doomsday Dawn; got to work on the chapter where you are killed, because it just throws all the enemies imaginable at you, and that was my first time working on an adventure, so that was a fun experience. Yeah, I was all in day one.
[00:08:23] Navaar: I think Pathfinder Second Edition has like, as a selling point, I remember when I first learned about it and learned about the three action economy, I was like, “this is the best thing ever.” Because the thing is, is like, if you’re selling somebody a fantasy TTRPG, they want to feel like a hero. And in early editions, that’s just not the case when it’s like, you are this badass fighter, and you swing your sword one time in six seconds, uh, and then you’re done.
And it’s like, aaaah? And so, yeah, like this, so it’s like this idea that like, yeah, you’re a first level character, and you can attack three times, there’s a risk and reward for that, but you could still do it. That to me was like, okay, I, I need to get my friends to — we’re not playing 5e anymore. We are moving over to this, and we will figure out how to make it work.
So yeah, to me as a fan of the game, it seems like a very, sort of like a definitive part of Second Edition. Something that yeah, it’s just a pillar, I guess. Yeah.
[00:09:22] Avi: That’s the exact word that Jason Buhlman uses. He talks about the pillars of, of Second Edition, and one of them is the action economy, another one is the trait system. Um, I can’t remember what the other two are off the top of my head, but these core concepts that support what the game can do that makes it different from other games.
[00:09:40] Navaar: I’m just gonna say one more thing and then I’ll give the mic back to Esther. [laughs] Uh, the other thing — because it’ll be, this is relevant — because, uh, as, um, we’re talking Baldur’s Gate has been out for, like, a week. I’ve been playing it. And not too bag on 5e a bunch, but I do think one of the things that I really enjoy — I was talking to my friends about this– was like, I, the reason I love Pathfinder 2e so much is because I don’t have to choose between advancing my ability modifiers or taking feats, I just get to have of those things, and my character is more badass for that. And I think that’s one of those things too, it’s just like, customization of it. Like I have a gnoll Sorcerer multiclassed as a Wizard, with a hyena familiar that I got because I’m a gnoll. And it’s like, he’s like, six foot two or something. Like, it’s this — I’m like, “Oh, this is amazing.” There’s a whole like ,cultural background to it. It’s, that stuff is like, “Okay, this feels good to play. This is exciting to play. This is something that I didn’t think that I could do.” And yeah, now I just have this little hyena with wings flying around, helping me out.
[00:10:42] Avi: Exactly. That reminds me of the character I’m playing right now in Mummy’s Mask. Because my First Edition character I adapted for our Second Edition game. My First Edition character was an oread Monk, and there’s actually an oread Monk archetype in First Edition which is really fun. But then for Second Edition I’m like, “But I can go weirder.”
So the ancestry is Shisk, which for anyone doesn’t know is like a kind of porcupine-quilled people from the Mwangi Expanse. And then I have the Undead Slayer archetype on that. So I can punch people, or punch undead and make them explode.
[00:11:20] Navaar: Yes.
[00:11:21] Avi: Um, so…
[00:11:22] Esther: That is amazing.
[00:11:23] Avi: It’s, it’s fantastic.
[00:11:25] Navaar: good. Yeah.
[00:11:26] Esther: That is amazing. I remember being really grumpy when I learned a new edition was coming out because I struggled to learn 1e. Like, as I’ve said before show, I’m not mathematically inclined, and I feel like you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta understand some math to really, like. build a character and fully grok like how the mechanics work and my co-GM of our like, our First Edition game, was really good at all that and, and helped me a lot. And I was like, “I finally grasped all of this to point where I feel like, confident… and they’re coming out with a new edition?” And was like, I remember I would complain to him.
I was like, “I’m going to have to learn all this stuff again and it’s going to be complicated.” And he was like, “Actually, I think you’re really gonna like this.”
[00:12:12] Navaar: Mm hmm.
[00:12:13] Avi: It’s true.
[00:12:14] Esther: I, I do. Yeah. The three economy changed my world. It’s great.
[00:12:19] Avi: Yes, I had the same experience about the math in 1e. I would always have my GM review my character sheet for math errors, because I really struggle with math. I have a learning disability, and it was something that was like, a barrier to me creating characters. And she would always find errors. It wasn’t like, “look over this and make sure it’s right.”
It’s like, “Please correct this because I know it’s wrong.” So being able to do my own character sheets without having to stress about the math is so empowering for me as well.
[00:12:51] Navaar: Yeah. And I think too — like, when I first started Secret Nerd Podcast, it was about six months, maybe, after Second Edition came out. So I’d already had some time to, like, play it for a while. Maybe, maybe it was a year and a half? I think it was probably a year and a half, actually. Uh, was it 2019 that it came out?
[00:13:09] Avi: I believe so.
[00:13:10] Navaar: Yeah. So yeah, it was a year and a half. So either way, I had, I had some time to get used to it, but when I joined the TTRPG space, everybody was playing 5e, and nobody wanted to try it who was playing 5e because they were like, “Well, I can’t learn this. It’s like I have to do rocket science.” And it’s like, no! Like, you have been reading too much propaganda.
Because it really, it’s simple. It’s different in the sense that like, yeah, you have more stuff that you can add, but if you’re using a digital character sheet, like everybody does, it does a lot of that stuff for you. And you just get to have a cooler character. I love that. I’m excited. I’m glad — obviously you stuck around, and you, and you seem to love your job, so I’m glad that that all worked out, and I’m glad that the, uh, you got to take that on, that Pathfinder 2e playtest and enjoy the process and get to where we are now.
[00:13:55] Avi: Yeah, it’s been great. And I do love my job. I’ve got an amazing job.
[00:13:59] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:14:00] Esther: I gonna ask, what is a day in the life? I’m always like, I ask this and then I’m like, I wouldn’t know how to describe a typical day my life because is there one?[group laughs] But what are some of things an editor does, like, behind the scenes, for our listeners? Yeah.
[00:14:14] Avi: So, we have an amazing team, so first thing we do every day is we all check in as a team. It’s not an isolated experience, we’re always asking each other questions, and collaborating, and coming up with Ideas together when we come across problems. So there are nine of us right now, so we got a really good sized team.
And then once we are settled in for the morning, we go about our different projects. We chop projects up into chunks, into small chunks, rather than having one person edit an entire book by themself and then wait for the next person to do the pass after them. We’re all kind of tackling the books simultaneously, chapter by chapter.
So I will, if I’m working in pre-layout, then I’ll work in Microsoft Word using the track changes feature and do kind of traditional editor markup that way. And then if I’m working post-layout, so after it’s already been through art and copy fit and all those things, um, then I’m going to be working on a PDF and making PDF markup, and I’m going through and looking for style, consistency, canon adherence, and then the same kind of things that all editors look for, like typos and grammar and that kind of thing.
I’m also looking for adherence to the Pathfinder baseline, which we talk about in the Core Rulebook, so any content that deviates from that we want to address with the developers, and then we all collect our questions, and we work with the other teams to go through and answer our questions about the book as they come up.
So, um, we have a great relationship with the other departments as well. I love talking to the devs and the designers about what they’re working on and getting to go deep into these questions with them. Like I recently worked on the playtest that is being dropped on September 1st, which I can’t tell you anything about!
[00:16:25] Esther: [group laughs]
[00:16:26] Avi: The coolest thing about it — I love doing the actual work, but then the coolest thing is getting to talk to Michael Sayre and James Case about, like, the intricacies of it and say, like, “Hey, I noticed this. Is this the direction we want to go in for this? What was your intention behind this? Um, how did you come up with like the numbers here, how did you come up with the action economy here?” And then using my knowledge of the game to supplement those questions as well. So that’s another part of my day that I do fairly often. And then the last thing that I do is entering changes into the actual file, which is um, my least favorite part of the job, because you kind of have to copyfit as you go, copyfit meaning making sure all the words fit on the page without going under or over. And the paragraphs have to fit perfectly on the page, we don’t want a page that has a single line at the top of the page because that is considered a copyfitting error.
And so as you enter your changes, you have to be constantly kind of sculpting the page. It’s a little bit of an esoteric process, and it can be a little annoying sometimes. So that’s my one thing that I complain about, like, “Oh, I had so many edits and I needed do so much copyfitting.” But, um, it’s worth it because then you get to see your edits on the page and you get to see what you’ve improved in the text and what you’ve worked with the developers and the designers to answer and to adjust and yeah. It’s, it’s a, it’s a great process, a great collaborative process. And that is what I do on the average day.
[00:18:06] Navaar: Yeah, that’s awesome.
[00:18:07] Esther: That’s really cool.
[00:18:08] Navaar: I was gonna say, I think, I think everybody who’s made a game on their own knows the pain of trying to figure out… graphic design is not my passion, y’all.
[00:18:17] Avi: [laughs] Yeah.
[00:18:18] Navaar: I am not that, I am not that guy. Uh, I did my best and trying to figure out how stuff fits onto a page, was absolutely difficult. So I get it.
[00:18:30] Esther: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Avi: Yeah. I don’t have to do the basic layout. The developers and the art team work together to do that. The art will like place the art elements and then they’ll put the raw text in, and then the designers or the developers will go through and copyfit the whole thing, which is an entire process that I am glad is not my job.
[00:18:52] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:18:53] Avi: But they get into the zone when they do it. So they’ve, you develop a method, um, dealing a tedious task.
[00:19:01] Navaar: Yeah, for sure.
[00:19:02] Esther: I love the way you put it, “sculpting a page.”
[00:19:05] Avi: Yeah.
[00:19:06] Esther: I don’t know that that’s something — even though I’ve designed a game before and written a game and then had to, like, make things work in my own very like — graphic design is also not my passion, um. It really is an art form, and I think we don’t always think about the massive amount of work that it is to not only just edit text, but to arrange words on a page, literally.
And that is such a, like a cool part of a job to me. That’s just, that’s amazing. It does make me want to ask — and then I will happily hand the mic back to Navaar — I wonder if you can tell us about like, one of the more difficult edits, like something that’s been a challenge, a particularly challenging book to edit.
[00:19:51] Avi: Yeah. I can talk about the most difficult. Do we want to get real here?
[00:19:57] Esther: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:58] Avi: The most difficult thing I’ve ever had to edit was Agents of Edgewatch.
Um, because it was so highly contentious. And I was — it was my first time doing an edit lead job, so edit lead is different than Lead Editor, which is my job title.
Every book has an edit lead, and that lead is assigned to shepherd the whole process: make sure everything gets edited consistently, so by running a style guide; making sure the files are properly transferred from development to art and then back to edit at the end; and then running all the final checks at the end of the process.
It’s a whole, it’s a whole thing that we take turns doing so it doesn’t fall on one person. So I was very new and this was my training process was I was going to be edit lead on Agents of Edgewatch. And then the lead who was going to be training me was sick. And so it was basically just me. And I was thrown into this Adventure Path that was so challenging content-wise.
And we had so many pitfalls that we had to look out for. And one of the things that we had to do was go through that first manuscript of the very first volume, and I had to have a long conversation with the developer about, like, “These are all the things that we need to change, and these are the kind of things that we can’t publish.” And we went for a walk around the building and just, uh, or around the block and we’re just like, “Let’s get out of the office and talk about this where there’s no prying ears and, you know, just get real about this.” Because It was such — the timing was so bad, because let’s all be honest, we know that this adventure came out around the time of the George Floyd protests, and it was a cop adventure. And nobody knew those protests were going to be happening when the book was published, it was first pitched and concepted, and then we were stuck with it.
[00:22:03] Esther: Mm.
[00:22:04] Avi: So that was by far the hardest editing experience I’ve ever had, and I doubt I’ll ever have one as challenging as that again, just because of the content of the adventure.
[00:22:14] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Esther: Absolutely.
[00:22:16] Navaar: That makes sense. Yeah. So my good friend Joe, who is the GM for Maker’s Misfits — they haven’t, they haven’t created content in a long time. A lot of stuff has come up. But they ended up playing the, uh — what’s the carnival one?
[00:22:30] Avi: Extinction Curse.
[00:22:31] Navaar: Yes, Extinction Curse. They ended up playing Extinction Curse for their AP. And when I asked them about, like, why that versus another one, it was like, “Well, we pitched this other one, but we didn’t want to be cops.” It was an all-POC group. So, yeah, I am familiar. So, yeah, but I think that is important. But also it brings up a great point of, like, having those discussions and how important that is.
Like, I think that’s –one, I want to commend you for being already in a difficult situation as like, this is your first time doing this. You’re in training still. And then you’re taking on this big conversation. But, I feel like if you’re willing to talk about this, like one of the things that I’ve noticed with you is that you are outspoken about a lot of the things that you feel passionate about when it comes to like social justice and things like that.
And so, do you feel like at the time, was this like a new thing for you? Or did you feel like you felt ready to have that conversation and comfortable to be like, “Hey, guess what? We need to step outside to have this conversation about this.”
[00:23:25] Avi: You know, I’ve been involved in social justice circles for a very long time, growing up as a trans Jewish person. You know, that was, those were not new concepts for me. And so the kind of groundwork on being able to have those conversations was done with my friends and family. And so I — I pissed off so many friends in my youth about those kind things! And had to learn how to have those conversations in ways that don’t alienate people. Because I did lose friends over social justice issues when I was younger, because I couldn’t properly articulate it without me just, like, railing on them because I had so many emotions about these subjects. And I wanted to do the right thing, and I wanted to communicate, but just didn’t have the tools.
So, um, shout out to everybody who’s ever been through that with me, because it’s a, it’s a learning process for sure. By the time I got to Paizo, I was old enough and felt comfortable enough talking about social justice issues that I was able to do it in a way that I think was professional. They took my advice and they didn’t fire me, so clearly they thought was acceptable. [group laughs]
[00:24:35] Navaar: It’s usually a good sign, yeah. I mean, I think that’s, that’s incredible. And I, I think the other important thing there, too, is a recognition of like, intersectionality, right? Is that like I, right, am a Black man and, and autistic. And so maybe those two things are like, the identity, but I can also understand and relate and have empathy for other people who don’t fit into those two particular identities.
And just like in this case, you, you had the ability to step in and have that conversation. I think it’s so important for a lot of people who are looking at stuff to realize, like, it doesn’t have to just be the thing that you are. It could be, we can step up and have a conversation about things that other people are as well.
[00:25:16] Avi: Absolutely. And that was so important, especially because, oh my god, our edit lead who was sick at the time, Lou, is Black as well. And I was like, Lou needs to be having these conversations here, except he’s not here. So I need to be having these conversations for him, because if I don’t, nobody will.
[00:25:38] Navaar: Yeah. Incredible. I appreciate that.
[00:25:40] Esther: I also think that just is such a great example of how editor and editing is a really key role. And we’ve had a couple people come on the show and reference, like, “we’ve sent a concept to the editors and they — the editing team — and they’ve come back with ‘maybe rethink that.'” And they’ve expressed how valuable that is.
And so — yeah, yeah! Which, um, please feel encouraged and good about that. We’ve had like multiple people talk to us about it at this point. And I just think that’s a really beautiful example of how two teams can really collaborate well, and also how to show up and, and advocate for social justice, for other people’s identities.
That’s just so cool. And for folks listening who may be interested in editing, that’s something that you might be able to bring into your career.
[00:26:32] Avi: Yeah, absolutely. I really encourage all editors to be up to date on issues of sensitivity and social justice and those kind of things, because it absolutely appears in your work, even in places that you don’t expect it to. And even when I was a contract editor for an organization that worked with Amazon Publishing, those kind of issues would come up as well. And that was one of the reasons why I was so happy to get a full time job at Paizo, because Paizo really lets me talk about those things.
The Amazon publishing authors didn’t want to hear it, you know, um, so if you can find a place that really supports you where you work with authors — or in this case developers and designers — who really want to hear what you have to say, I think that’s so important as an editor, that we can talk about the different issues that we’re coming across in a text. Because we are doing more than just looking for grammar, you know?
[00:27:29] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:27:29] Avi: A robot can look for grammar. And won’t always be right because they’re perfect, let’s be honest, but there’s so much more to it than just being a stickler for the rules.
[00:27:42] Navaar: I mean, I think — this kind of is a little bit of a separate thing, but something that I think will probably come up with at least a few listeners is, we talked about sensitivity and things like that. Like, where do sensitivity consultants and things like that fit into the path? Do they intersect with the editing team first, or after? Or? I assume first, but yeah.
[00:28:01] Avi: We used to, as the editing team, hire the sensitivity readers. But then we realized that that was actually too late in the process. By the time something hits edit, it needs to already have had its sensitivity read, or else we’re just pointing out problems and can’t really edit the text.
You know, we’ll still occasionally find problems after things have gone through, but having a sensitivity reader at the front end solves 99 percent of problems. So the developers are responsible, and the designers, for hiring sensitivity readers at this point in time. We no longer do that as the editing team.
Which is a little bit of a shame because I miss getting to get to know those people because that’s how I met Shay Snow was, um, through, um, their expertise as a sensitivity reader. Or no, I met them because they were a writer on Bestiary 3. But then the first time that I interacted with them in a hiring capacity was hiring them as a sensitivity reader. And now obviously they’re a Pathfinder Society developer, so it’s a great way to bring in new people who have different types of expertise, and help them get familiar with the Pathfinder brand if they’re not already as well. And so that is not something I get to work on anymore, but it does make much more sense to have the developers do it so we’re not having problems that are, really high on the scope level when we need to be focusing on, on the text on a really minute level. It kind of clashes between the two if we do it too late.
[00:29:43] Navaar: I mean, that totally makes sense. I think, in terms of just like, content, right? I think it’s something that we can see as we like, talk about these books and praise these books often, Esther and I. You can see that in that the path from concept to completion seems to have those ducks in a row because a lot of that stuff isn’t problematic, right, the best way to put it.
[00:30:09] Avi: I appreciate that.
[00:30:10] Navaar: Yeah, yeah, me too. I mean, because that’s the thing, right? It’s like, as much as — like, I love tabletop RPGs. I think everybody does. There’s a big game that came out recently that I’m not going to name, that people love the brand and the creator, but it’s very problematic still.
And a lot of people are still seeing a lot of problems with it. And it’s like, the fact that these things keep getting missed, is difficult as a fan to, to go through something and be like, “Ah, I love so much of this and I really wish that this wasn’t here.” Because it takes away a little bit from that enjoyment.
And some people won’t care. I get that. I get that some people just do not care at all when it comes to that stuff. And they think everything in that content-wise is fine, and you know, to each their own, I guess.
But, also don’t be a shithead. [group laughs] uh, but — if we’re being real!
But I do think it’s, it’s important, especially as a big publisher, right, to have those steps in place and be like, “Hey, yeah, we’re going to do the best we can to make it right, and to make it feel good for the people who are reading it so when we walk away from it, I’m excited to play a Black dwarf.” Like yes! You know what I mean? Like I, or — even the, um, I cannot remember the name of it, but from the Impossible Lands, the, the monkey ancestry.
[00:31:23] Avi: Uh, Vanar…
[00:31:24] Esther: Vanara.
[00:31:25] Avi: Vanara, thank you.
[00:31:27] Navaar: That! Like I’m, I’m excited to play that, as opposed to a different monkey ancestry from a different game that I never want to play. Um, so, yeah, I think there’s a right way to do it, and I’m excited that there’s those steps in place and have been for a long time. Even if those steps had to be adjusted in order, right? Like, I think it’s great to see, so.
[00:31:48] Avi: Yeah. It’s one of those things where our goal as a publisher is to publish something that people will feel good about enjoying and will really want to embrace wholeheartedly. And that’s not just my goal. That’s Eric Mona’s goal. That’s, you know, the goal of everybody who works at Paizo, is to publish games that really bring out the best in people and bring out different sides of the tabletop gaming culture that we haven’t seen before.
And all of that is really, really important at Paizo. So, it’s one of the reasons that I’ve stayed here for five years because I feel like the publishing philosophy is consistent with my values, I should say.
[00:32:30] Navaar: I think a big indicator of that probably is the unionization of the workers. So I’m curious, like as we kind of move into that, like, what was that experience like, right? To go from non-union to now union? And how did that feel? I think that’s an important thing to talk about, just the process of it.
[00:32:49] Avi: It was a wild experience. So, our actual unionization effort in — two years ago, was it? Oh my god. I think it was a year and a half ago.
[00:32:57] Navaar: Early 2022.
[00:32:58] Avi: It was not the first time I was approached about unionizing Paizo. The first time I was approached was maybe three years ago when we were still, four years ago even, maybe, we were still in the office.
So, unionization was something we discussed but never really had kind of the critical mass for. And Paizo has had a change in leadership since then, and so… things were not as good back then they are now. Let’s just… let’s just say it. We didn’t unionize because everything was perfect, um, but things are so much better now because of the union and because of the change in leadership and because we’ve all been able to really put our, our voices out there.
But the actual process of how we unionized was mostly through Discord chats, because we were not in the office at the time. We didn’t have the previous option we had, which was, you know, let’s go take a walk, which I mentioned before, and also we did as we were talking about unionizing four years ago. But that process of having Discord calls with people, we made a secret Discord server that then we one by one added people as they said they were down.
A lot of people did some really heavy lifting to make this happen. I did a couple of, conversations with people as I had the ability, because I was like, stressed out by this whole thing. So I threw myself in there at first and I was like, yes, I’m going to talk to as many people as possible. And I totally burnt myself out.
[00:34:29] Navaar: Yeah, yeah —
[00:34:30] Esther: Yeah.
[00:34:31] Avi: Thank god for the other people in the union who had more energy than I did because it was a challenging time, but people really stuck through it. And it’s been such a huge, huge improvement to see just morale change so dramatically, and to see the the love that everybody has for the company and for their co-workers and for the union. It really means a lot and feel like we have a great sense of like camaraderie as a company now that we didn’t have before.
[00:35:07] Navaar: Yeah. Awesome to hear.
[00:35:09] Esther: is so awesome to hear. And there’s a couple of things in there that just made me really happy. Like, first of all, that things have improved so dramatically, it sounds like, on, on several fronts.
I used to be a community organizer, and still am in some ways, and labor organizing is no joke. Like it’s really hard work. And it takes a lot of hours, a lot of commitment, and a lot of risk, like people are putting themselves and their jobs at risk to form a union. And I have so much respect for everybody who was involved in this process, and just all the work that went into the organizing and the formation and the conversations. And it makes me really happy that, y’all had Discord servers and conversations about this.
My spouse works at Discord they will be extremely happy that a product they, uh, they help make is, is a union product, or a union organizing facilitation tool. Yeah.
[00:36:09] Avi: Exactly. We would not have been able to do it easily without Discord. So thank you Discord, the new unionization tool.
[00:36:17] Navaar: I mean, I think that’s a great thing to,because there’s a lot of other places and people, I think. I mean, the comment has come up often of like, “Everybody should just unionize. Just do it. Or strike.” What it does, though, I think, is provide some context of, like, hey, like, maybe you can’t go gather all the people in your office together for this thing, but you can have these conversations in a place where you control who’s in that, who’s in that server. And, and you can see all the conversations laid out and, and, and moderate that stuff.
And so I think that yeah, it seems like a very improbable task, but obviously it worked out, and I’m glad. I, I know, just as a fan on the outside looking in, there — and at the time, like, most of the people that I was associated with who did stuff with Paizo were freelancers —
[00:37:04] Avi: Mm hmm.
[00:37:05] Navaar: — outside looking in, it’s like, it’s scary. I’m sure inside looking out, it’s also scary too. But it’s scary.
It’s like, “What’s going to happen to this game that I love? What’s going to happen to these people that I love that, you know, rely on this for, for their employment and for, and, uh, for their salary?” And to find that the company recognized it, and then, you know, things move forward and progressed.
And it’s been amazing to see. And it’s exciting to seeing other smaller like,niche industries also start to pick up.
[00:37:33] Avi: Yes. And a lot of them have told us that. Like, a lot of people have come and told us that Paizo’s unionization inspired them. So like, other game companies have said that. So that is the coolest thing ever. I hope that we inspire lots of people to unionize because you can do it. You can do it. It’s hard work, but it’s worth it. And it makes your workplace better.
[00:37:55] Esther: So there’s something that’s kind of a, a lane change that I’ve ask you.
[00:38:01] Avi: Yeah?
[00:38:01] Esther: Earlier you mentioned being trans and Jewish.
[00:38:03] Avi: Yes.
[00:38:03] Esther: And those things are both very important to me. And I feel like I have been able to track so much transness in Pathfinder 2e specifically. I’d love to hear your thoughts on like where and how that’s showing up.
And as someone who’s almost done converting to be Jewish, I look for Jewishness in everything. And I’m super curious to know where you would say, Jewish stuff shows up in this game, and how it may show up.
[00:38:32] Avi: Yeah, absolutely. So, as far as the first part of your question, the trans content in Pathfinder comes directly from trans creators. We have a huge number of trans freelancers, we have a good number of trans staff members as well. So that is coming direct from the source, that’s not anybody pandering, you know, as we’ve been accused of. That’s always such a bad faith argument, but.
[00:38:57] Esther: Which, I can’t believe! [group laughs]
[00:38:59] Avi: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s legitimate. And it comes from trans people wanting to be in this world. And so many people in TTRPGs in general have discovered themselves as trans through playing games. A lot of people come into this, into this world and realize, like, “I can make a character who’s whoever I want.”
And this isn’t unique to Pathfinder, this is true of D&D and many other games. But I’ve talked to so many people who found out that they were trans because they made a character who represented how they really felt, and that character ended up being their gateway into discovering their own trans experience.
So, the fact that we have so many trans freelancers is a reflection of that, it’s also a reflection of the fact that the company has had trans people working at it since First Edition. Like Crystal Frazier is kind of the — to me she was like the shining light of like, “Oh my god, a trans person writing adventures and developing adventures at, at Paizo, how cool is that?”
So, I think I probably am not the only person who noticed her out there and that she was a very public figure, and it made it feel safe to write about trans people for Pathfinder and Starfinder. So, shoutout to Crystal for really paving the way in that way.
And then the other part of it is the support from allies at the company is huge. Like, I worked on, as a writer and edit lead, on Lost Omens Grand Bazaar. The outline explicitly said, like, “This character is trans, this character is trans.” There were like six or seven trans characters in that book, and it was explicitly called out in the outline, and then trans people were hired to write those characters.
[00:41:04] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Avi: And so Eleanor and Luis really made that happen in a big way as well, so they deserve credit too.
And then the second part of your question: there are fewer opportunities to put Jewish-inspired things in Pathfinder because of so many issues around misrepresentation. You know, there are a lot of influences from Judaism that exist in Pathfinders from First Edition, and from Second Edition as well, that are not really accurate to Jewish legends, to Jewish lore. So things like the way we’ve portrayed golems is much more in the D&D school of thought than it is in the Jewish tradition. And then there’s Dybbuks as well, um, which are a little bit less ripped from their foundations, but still don’t have a huge connection to the folklore.
And there are probably other Jewish-inspired monsters that I can not think of at this moment, but I’ve, I’ve definitely seen people list them out, and I think there’s a few I’m forgetting. But in terms of what we actually put in the books that is intentionally Jewish, I’ve talked about this a lot, so I’m sure you’ve heard me talk about this before, but the character I wrote for Grand Bazaar, I was like, “Hhow do I make this character Jewish with — in a world with, first off, polytheism?”
[00:42:33] Esther: Yes.
[00:42:34] Avi: That’s like, kind of the big sticking point, and also in a way that is not going to be, offensive, or, also not, like, sticking out like it doesn’t fit in the setting. So, I, when I wrote this character, I focused in on the refugee experience that my ancestors had. And in terms of figuring out who the deity that he worships would be, I chose Shelyn because when I think about my experience growing up as a Reform Jew and going to synagogue, I think about music and how important music was in my upbringing and how music is the way that I really connected with God as like a young Jewish person.
I played in the Klezmer band. I sang in the choir. I was very involved in music at synagogue. So, um, Shelyn seemed like, you know — not the perfect fit for my personal experience. And aside from that, I haven’t personally put anything else really Jewish into the setting. But I look for, I’m always thinking about ways that we could add more Judaism to Pathfinder, because there’s, like, there’s not much out there.
And it’s a little bit tricky. It’s not as simple as putting in, like a country like Andoran, which is inspired by, like democracy or something like that. And, you know, there’s a very one-on-one kind of analog that you draw. There’s not an easy one-on-one analog that you can draw in a polytheistic setting between that and Judaism, because so much of Judaism, it does revolve around being monotheistic.
So, I don’t want to do it wrong, you know? I don’t want to do it in a way that will feel ungenuine or offend people or anything like that. But I’m always thinking about it.
[00:44:37] Esther: I love that. I think that’s, it’s so important to do things, in a way that minimizes harm. And I love the intention there and just how carefully it’s being held.
For me, I wound up homebrewing a bunch of stuff a while back that had to do with Kyonin. And I was like, I’m going to track down what I can in canon and then I’m just going to kind of like do my own thing. And, it was like either right before or right after Elul. And for those who — we’re like two days from the beginning of this month in the Jewish calendar right now. And it’s a month of like real reflection and internal work and thinking about it how our lives are in like, accord with our values and the ways we have lived into our values or not and our relationships. And I noticed like, time cycles really showing up in the things that I was homebrewing and I was like, “Well, I can’t really say they’re Jewish, but this is so influenced by my experience of living into what it means to be Jewish. To have this really purposeful observance of time and one day a week that is really sacred and set apart. And then like a month a year that is — more than one month — but like certain times in the year that are really sacred and set apart.” And I was like, “How would elves think about that? Well, they have these super long lifespans. So let’s take like one year out of every 10 and it can be like, uh, uh, Shabbat year! Or —
[00:46:06] Avi: Mm hmm!
[00:46:07] Esther: — the Jubilee year.”
[00:46:08] Avi: Oh, I love to hear that. That’s awesome.
[00:46:11] Navaar: Yeah, I think it really is difficult to do something like that and make it work. I think what one of the, one of the things that I feel like as I’ve just sort of consumed more media from like a critical lens is that like, coding is important, too, right? Sometimes coding happens accidentally.
People just, like — oh, you met a person, you didn’t realize this person was this, and then you wrote a character about that person, and you’ve created this thing that you adamantly refuse to accept as being this other thing. But I think, like, it’s one of those things that we can consciously do as well, it’s like, like you talked about. Like, there are certain things, I can’t, reach this specific goal, because it’s, Judaism is a, it’s a monotheistic religion, right? But I can code to a certain extent to get to a degree of this that feels like it’s something that would be representative for me. In the same vein that like Piccolo, this green alien character from Dragonball Z, is coded Black to many Black people uh, when we watch the character.
[00:47:06] Avi: Yes, I’ve heard about that!
[00:47:07] Navaar: Yeah. So — and I think now, like, as I’ve, learned about being autistic and have learned more about it, I’m, like, constantly, like, “Oh, that character? Yeah, for sure.” And so I think it’s still important, right? I think it’s important to, like, find those ways that we can hit on certain aspects of a character, of a place, of a culture, and make it feel in a way that’s reminiscent of what we’re trying to achieve, and still fits — like you were talking about, Avi — still fits t,he setting still fits the fantasy world that we’re playing in.
[00:47:38] Avi: Yeah, definitely. It can be a fine needle to thread sometimes, but I think it’s really worth it.
[00:47:43] Navaar: I think that’s one of the fun things, too, like the assignments that — because we’ve had quite a few freelancers on now talk about stuff that they’ve written — and it’s fun to hear how they take the assignments of stuff and go, “Okay, how can I tie this in? Or how can I fix this thing from the past?” Like, the Vishkanya was a fun one to listen to, uh, Ruvaid talk about how he did that. So yeah, I, I love to hear that and, and to see people just, you know, be creative and, and be free and, think outside the box.
[00:48:11] Avi: Definitely. And so much of it is a little bit tricky because a lot of First Edition was written without a real understanding cultural appropriation, which is, you know, kind of a feature of its time. And that nobody was really using sensitivity readers in 2010. And so these books were put out in the state that they were put out in.
And, uh, it’s always a little bit awkward to be, like, updating some of that material and telling the freelancers, “Go read these old books. Sorry about them!” [group laughs] They’re –I mean, those old books, most of them still have a lot of good stuff in them. Some of them are a little bit more challenging than others.
[00:48:53] Esther: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Avi: And that’s what has been so nice about, especially the Lost Omens line in Second Edition — because when we were doing First Edition, Eleanor and Luis were responsible for the softcovers. And nothing they did got a real spotlight, really. It was all like, only the megafans would buy them, you know? It wasn’t really platformed by the company in a major way.
But then getting to do something like the Mwangi Expanse hardcover, which was a major release and a major risk for the company, because we were, you know, we didn’t know if people were going to blast us for it.
And to be perfectly honest, to be able to put that out as a book that the company really put on the front page and really promoted and then was so well received, you know, that kind of risk really has a high reward.
[00:49:49] Navaar: That was the second book I got. That might not be true, because I think I had to wait for it. I wanted the Core Rulebook, and I waited. I knew the Mwangi Expanse was coming, I think I waited six months waiting for that release. The day it came out, I called the local game store, and I was like, “Please hold this! We don’t have a big Black population here, but I swear if somebody buys this book, I will fight.”
Um, and they did, they held it. I went in from work, straight from work, and picked it up. And yeah, the thing for me was like, seeing the orcs in there. Because the orcs have been problematic for a very long time, and have been coded Black sometimes, or just as other people of color, and never in a good way. And so to see, uh, the Matanji, is that right?
[00:50:33] Avi: Yeah, that’s correct. Demon slayers!
[00:50:36] Navaar: Yes. I was like, “Are you kidding me? This is so good.” And then it’s like, yeah, and half-orcs, like, fit into their society. It was just a very simple, like — I was like, “Oh, you have no idea how important this is.” So, yeah. And then, of course, like, dwarves, halflings, elves, all of that was just amazing. And it’s like, again, this is early into my, like, getting into the TTRPG space, in like a public way. And to like, see these Black writers like be a part of it and, and have conversations and be proud of the stuff that they did, and talk about like the influences — like, you know, Allie talks about the, uh, uh, with the halflings, the Song’o halflings, the, the stick fighting that they do. And that being like a part of like a, I want to say a Caribbean thing if I remember correctly?
All that to say, it’s just really exciting. I really get jazzed about like people getting to do that and getting to bring it into their — into the space, and getting to contribute in a way that like feels good. And see other people play with it and sort of awaken that imagination and creativity and go “Oh, like this is, this can be — this is a version of the fantasy world that I’m enjoying playing.”
[00:51:39] Avi: Yeah, that makes me so happy. And that book being so successful has opened so many doors for what we can publish in the future. Like, we would not be doing these Tian Xia books if the Mwangi Expanse book had not been successful. So, um, the fact that it’s been so well received is huge for what we can and will be publishing in the future.
[00:52:03] Navaar: Yeah. Very excited for that book, too. Yeah.
[00:52:05] Avi: Yes.
[00:52:06] Esther: We’re very excited for Tian Xia.
[00:52:08] Navaar: Books, I should say. Yeah.
[00:52:09] Esther: Yeah.
[00:52:10] Avi: I’m working on the World Guide right now. And it’s, I can’t say anything about it other than that it’s so good. It’s so creative. It feels like — I will say this: it feels like halfway between like, a very kind of specific style of anthropology and fantasy. So it bridges these two fields in a really interesting way.
You look at all of the details of these cultures, and then they’ve got these fantasy elements that are just woven through them. And so it feels like you’re really getting to know the people in addition to exploring a wild and fantastical world. So that’s what I’ll say about the Tian Xia World Guide.
[00:52:56] Navaar: There are some absolutely brilliant writers on there. And of the people that I know, with some really amazing backgrounds, that I’m so excited to see everything that’s been written.
[00:53:06] Avi: Yeah.
[00:53:06] Navaar: So, yeah.
[00:53:07] Avi: I can’t wait to share it with all of you.
[00:53:09] Navaar: Yeah.
[00:53:10] Esther: Well Avi, we’ve kept you for a while and I don’t want to keep you too late, because we record at night. But there is one thing I gotta ask you before we let you go: bears?
[00:53:22] Avi: Bears!
[00:53:23] Navaar: Bears, please!
[00:53:24] Esther: You are well known —
[00:53:24] Avi: Anything in particular you want to know about bears?
[00:53:26] Navaar: Nope, nope! Just bears!
[00:53:28] Esther: Uh, for those who don’t follow Avi on social media, you’re really missing out because they post the most amazing like nature content, which a lot of it is bears.
And Navaar and I have both like, expressed how much joy this brings on the timeline. So just bears in general, and like, what brings you joy about them? And how did you get into bear watching?
[00:53:50] Avi: Yeah, that’s a great question. So I got into bear watching because, um, very indirectly. So, um, the website explore.org hosts a huge number of animal cams from all over the world. Um, like in the off season I watch their Africa cams, which are mostly in South Africa, but there’s a couple in Kenya. And then they have panda cams in China, and then they have, like, kitten rescue in Los Angeles.
And they’ve got, like, dogs, they’ve got all kinds of stuff. I started out with the kitten rescue, because my old boss, Judy Bauer, watched them during work. And so, this is a thing that, you know, we all kind of recognize that you can have a cam with kittens on it in one corner of your screen and still do work.
And then, you know, it is actually a great morale boost. So I was watching the kitten cams, and then one day a banner ad pops up that says, “Bears Fishing At Brooks Falls.” And I’m like, “What? What? Bears? This is exciting!” So I click on it, and the first bear I see is this enormous blonde mama bear with her two little babies fishing on the edge of the falls, catching fish in mid air. And there are bears everywhere! And it was just, it blew my mind. Because I’ve always been a huge nature fan, I subscribe to the PBS app and watch all episodes of PBS Nature and Nova and I love that kind of stuff. So, I love the natural world and it blew my mind to see this, this concentration of bears all together, all fishing at the same spot.
And I immediately became hooked and then I realized that there was a chat and the people in the chat were able to identify the bears. And of course, I needed to get that, because —
[00:55:46] Navaar: This most incredible part. ‘Cause I’m like, you — okay, you know, that’s 806. All right! I mean, I believe you, fully believe you. It’s just amazing that you know.
[00:55:56] Avi: I’ve spent four years watching these bears and studying them, and the thing that’s so amazing about being able to identify individual bears, is you get to learn their stories and their personal histories, and each one of them is really unique. So each bear has a really different story, some of them have stories that involve hardship, some of them have had stories that involve fights, and some have lost cubs. And some of them have had more cushy lives, and have been, you know, kept for an extra year by their mom, so they got an extended childhood, and then they get a little head start on their fishing career. They have different relationships with the different bears around them, like one bear may have a good relationship with another bear, and then have a negative relationship with a third bear, and they’ll interact in ways that reflect those relationships.
They’re really individuals in a way that kind of continues to blow my mind. So that’s keeps me watching, is learning their stories and getting to see their stories unfold.
[00:57:02] Navaar: That’s awesome.
[00:57:03] Esther: I love that. Watchers of my Twitter feed or whatever social media it’s gonna be, may know that I live in a place where I’m able to observe a family of eagles these days. And what’s blown my mind is that exact thing, like how they each have their distinct personalities. And just watching, like, over a period of a few months, I’ve learned, like, the mama’s personality and her, her mate’s personality, which is a little bit more, even more chill than her. They’re, we think they are their kids, who are still around and are clearly like younger eagles and the fact that they have — the eagles are chill with osprey, two local osprey, but the osprey are not chill with the eagles. And yeah, yeah, there’s this like peace on one side, aggression on the other. And it’s just, it’s so interesting to watch the way animals interact and to to notice the ways they are similar to and yet so different from us.
And there is something very refreshing to me about nature and really nourishing to me about being in nature, watching nature, and watching these stories play out in just the same world I’m in, but such a different world. It’s very special.
[00:58:18] Avi: Yeah. I really find a lot of joy in it. And when it’s not bear season — so bear season lasts from like mid-June to the end of October, generally. That’s when bear cams will be on and there’ll be bears around. When it’s not bear season, I am noticeably sadder. Just, I miss them, because they become such a huge part of my life, watching these bears.
But, the great thing is, those Africa cams are amazing as well. There are lions, and hyenas, and hippos, and crocodiles, and baboons, and just like, so many different types of animals on those. But they’re a little bit sparser, they don’t just hang out in front of the camera all day like bears do.
The bears are very accommodating, but the African animals, they’ll come to the waterhole and then they’ll leave. So you do have a lot more time just staring at an empty waterhole, going “Man, I wish a hyena would show up something like that.”
[00:59:17] Navaar: Yeah. I mean, so this is both good and bad. I live in New Mexico and we have a ton of different animals and wildlife. I lived in a place where in my backyard I had an owl that lived in one tree and a pair of Merlin falcons that lived in another, with like the blue cap. It was awesome.
So it’s always been wolves for me, has been since I was kid. I was named after a character who turned into a wolf. So, watch Ladyhawk, everybody. Um and, yeah, but birds of prey was the other one, because I lived in the desert and we would catch a lot of, there would be a lot of falcons and hawks out there. And so, yeah, anytime you get to see those is cool.
There’s also a lot of coyotes around. And the unfortunate part of this is that because of people they are in the city sometimes. And so I was driving — it was like 107 the other day, and there was a coyote laying in the shade at the park, uh, next to the preschool.
[01:00:11] Avi: Oh, wow.
[01:00:12] Navaar: Yeah, laying in the shade, and three roadrunners — this is why it was hilarious –because there’s three roadrunners sitting around eating bugs out of the grass, um, all within reach, basically, if this coyote decided to get up and chase them. And, uh, they were just like, “No, it’s too hot for any of us deal with this. Uh, I’m gonna eat my food, you just hang out over there, you stay in the shade, you cool off, you do what you gotta do.”
[01:00:34] Avi: That’s so cool that you got to witness that.
[01:00:36] Navaar: Yeah, you’ll see pairs of Roadrunners every once in a while, but you don’t often see three at once, and that was, uh, yeah, it was fun.
Anyway: incredible, Avi! Yeah.
[01:00:47] Avi: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me.
[01:00:51] Esther: Thank you taking the time to talk to us! We always like to ask, where can folks follow you and your work on the internet?
[01:00:58] Avi: Yeah, um, I am legalizegoblins on Twitter and Bluesky.
[01:01:04] Navaar: For obvious reasons!
[01:01:05] Avi: That is one that I came up with and will never ever go back because it’s the perfect handle.
[01:01:11] Navaar: It is, yeah. It’s great.
[01:01:13] Esther: It is.
[01:01:14] Navaar: Incredible, yeah, thank you again. Yeah, this is, this has been a lot of fun.
[01:01:17] Avi: I had a great time.
[01:01:18] Esther: And Navaar, where can we find you online?
[01:01:21] Navaar: I’m in most places as NavaarSNP. That’s N-A-V-A-A-R-S-N-P, Check it out.
[01:01:27] Esther: And if you all would like to follow me online, you can do so on the entity formerly known as Twitter or on Bluesky at the handle dungeonminister.
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