KD300 In Writing


[00:00:00] Esther: Hello, listeners of Know Direction, Esther here. I’m coming to you before the official start of our episode with a couple of notes. 

This is the first of a couple episodes that focus less on Pathfinder product reviews and more on interviews with folks in the broader Pathfinder creator space and the broader tabletop RPG space in general. We’ve had both a bit of a lull in Pathfinder products being released, and a bit of a hard time scheduling interviews with some folks we really want to have on the show. So, Navaar and I thought that it would be fun to bring in some different perspectives to the podcast to focus a little bit on topics that are very connected to Pathfinder, but that are a little different than what we usually talk about.

We hope that you will enjoy listening to these interviews as much as we enjoyed conducting them, and don’t worry — our Pathfinder product reviews and Pathfinder- specific interviews will be back very soon.

Now, on to the episode!

Welcome and Introductions 

[00:01:16] Esther: Hello and welcome to Know Direction, your number one source for Pathfinder news reviews and interviews. I’m Esther Wallace, and today we are bringing you a very special episode that I think is going to be our number 300, our 300th episode! And I am so excited for the guests that are joining us. But first, my co-host! 

[00:01:42] Navaar: Hello, I’m Navaar. I’m here. I’m here. I’m excited for 300. 

[00:01:47] Esther: Yay. And today we are joined by the cast and crew, some of the cast and crew of the Pathfinder 2E actual play Goblets and Gays and An Unwavering Force. Welcome everyone! And yeah, just popcorn style, introduce yourselves. We always ask folks to like briefly tell us their Pathfinder origin story, so if you want to put that in the mix, go for it! 

[00:02:12] Navaar: Alyssa, go first, because you’re the first on my screen, please. 

[00:02:15] Alyssa: But Aki’s alphabetically first now! Hi, I’m– [everyone laughs] 

[00:02:20] Navaar: L comes before K. 

[00:02:23] Alyssa: My love, no… 

[00:02:24] Navaar: Okay, whatever. I’m gonna edit that out. Nobody will know I said it.

[00:02:29] Aki: No, I stand with you Navaar! [everyone laughs]

[00:02:29] Alyssa: Uh, yeah! Hi, Alyssa, they/them pronouns. And Goblets and Gays was actually my first experience playing Pathfinder. I was a guest on their second season for what was supposed to be one episode, I think it ended up being like five or seven? 

[00:02:48] Dusty: So many.

[00:02:50] Alyssa: It was a lot! But I think they were around Level 7 at that point, so I got to like build up a pretty decent character for what I thought was a one-shot, what turned [out] to be much longer. Yeah, but it was great. I’d played more sort of PBTA games before and sort of non-D&D, non-Pathfinder, so it was a lot of fun. The, like, you know, the crunch in the character building was, is good for my brain.

[00:03:16] Aki: Hello, I’m Aki. I’m the original co-founder for Goblets and Gays. And then we, and then we stole Dusty and now we have more, now we have three. And I have been playing Pathfinder 2E for about three years now. I’ve also written for Pathfinder — both of these were announced, so I’m allowed to say — [everyone laughs] I, I will be in the, um, Tian Xia books that are coming out, as well as, uh, Howl of the Wild. So I’ve written for both of those, haha.

And, my first experience with Pathfinder was our podcast. I came out of only playing D&D. I was scared, confused and afraid, and then chose to play a character with an accent for three years live. So, you know, things happened. I now consider myself — still scared and afraid and extremely confused, because Remastered came out and we decided to move to that and I’m doing like three separate Pathfinder 2e Remastered Edition projects right now that have all just started. So I am not good.

My level is exactly the same and they’re all prerecorded so like it’s gonna be the same in several months.

[00:04:37] Dusty: Well, I’m Dusty. I use they/he pronouns. I started Pathfinder a while ago. It was actually my first TTRPG. I had a local group that invited me to a new campaign they restarted in First Edition for Rise of the Runelords. I played a Druid that was inspired by the Iron Druid Chronicles, shoutout to anyone who read that! I think it got really bad after, like, book three.

And then, like, that campaign, like, didn’t go too far. I think we got to, like, Level 4. And then that same group, maybe like six months later, we started Reign of Winter. And so,I played that from 1 to 17, which took over the course of 3 years, um, with a 3rd party class of all things! So, truly, I still don’t know all the magic rules for Pathfinder First Edition, since I did something completely different. And then, I mean — even mine, it was called Spheres of Power, if anyone has used that. It basically turns your magic into a mana pool and has like, all these different things. A little complicated, but still fun.

And now I’m in two Pathfinder 2E-specific shows. I’m a co-producer of Goblets and Gays as cast. I also joined third season, started as a guest in second season. Mine was only two episodes, because mine was not nearly as chaotic as a guest spot– though probably as chaotic, but in very different ways, which we’ll talk about later, I assume.

And yeah, Pathfinder 2e is my safe spot. It’s my favorite game. 

[00:06:11] Esther: Amazing. I have a ton of questions I want to ask, but I also want to ask Navaar, because you are a castmate of all these lovely folks, do you have anything you want to start us off with? 

Introduction to Goblets and Gays

[00:06:24] Navaar: Yes! This isn’t really a question, this is more of an observation. I think one of the great things about playing with the three of you is that the three of you play together a lot, and so that there is a lot of chemistry and understanding and, like, knowing the nuance of each other. I love that the three of you like, travel together to a lot of different shows, because I think it’s, it’s like the whole like Adam Sandler thing of like taking your friends wherever you go.

I just think that’s cool. And I love playing with the three of you, so.

I mean, the biggest thing, I think, for context of this is — since Aki has been there since the beginning — uh, Aki, for people who have never listened to Goblets and Gays, like what’s the show, the first season about? And how did that all come together?

[00:07:11] Aki: So, our flagship show is called Blood of Kings. It spans four seasons and three years IRL time. The first season is about a bunch of adventurers that all signed up for a university thesis run. And instead, plot happens. We’re all very gay… and that’s it. We’re all very gay. [everyone laughs] 

Later on we do things like fight gods and get major life changing lore drops a whole season in. Our recommendation is that you just watched the first episode of the first and second season, because we do really great recaps and then all of our audio quality ups its game. [laughs] Season three? We got sound effects! Oh, you know, all that good stuff. But if you want to learn with us, I would recommend seasons one — the whole thing.

The whole thing! I’m sorry, I’m still remembering the bad mics. Because two of us, myself included, didn’t get a mic upgrade until the end of the first season. And then one of us, you can hear her laptop fan, her laundry machine, you can hear all of her stuff turn on in the background. It’s really an experience. It’s very fun. 

[00:08:42] Esther: I totally relate to that in terms of like, just the realness of the mics and like the sound situation and upping the game as a podcast goes on. I’m curious, as somebody who’s also started a Pathfinder 2e show — I know, like, some of my own thought process for, like, why I wanted to start an actual play.

I’m curious to hear, for both Goblets and Gays and An Unwavering Force, like, what is some of the “we want to start this show?” What are those stories? 

[00:09:14] Aki: We started right like, 2020 pandemic kind of vibes. So, truthfully, my co-producer, Aubrey — our co-producer, Aubrey — is the one who pitched the idea first, including the system. Aubrey has had some podcasting experience beforehand and she wanted to start it up again.

And also the setting of Blood of Kings was actually our first game together with some of the other cast. So this is prior to Dusty and Alyssa popping into my life and ruining it forever. This is way before that. That’s another thing — in seasons, the first two and a half parts of the season, I am the only person of color as well on the cast.

So, uh, starting a podcast was definitely not something I was super gung-ho about, and that’s simply because I really thought it was the white man’s game. I could name two, and none of them were actual plays except for Critical Role, which is all white. So I wasn’t sure until Transplanar came across my feed, and then I was like, “Okay, there’s one! That’s it, that’s all I needed.” So here I am.

We definitely blew up a lot faster. We didn’t expect it at all. We were just kind of okay with having a recorded detailed note log of our adventure. So when we, when people started actually liking our stuff, that was definitely a lot of motivation to continue. 

I do all the art on G&G, so that was also lowkey the ego boost I needed around that time. So that’s another reason why I was like, “Yeah, let’s continue, so my art gets seen.” So, you know, like there was, there was tons of other motivations, but, um, the big one was “so people actually think we can tell a story. Oh, we got you!” We’re like, “Yeah, we can continue it.” We continued from there. 

[00:11:19] Dusty: I mean, going off of that — so the three of us, Alyssa, Aki, and I, we all met each other through other TTRPG space that, that space wasn’t that great. But we found all of our– we got together, so it worked out for the best for us.

But I actually started listening to Goblets and Gays, like, I started listening to it because like, “Oh, I heard of y’all already when I met Akino.” And so like, I was listening to it, and then for a while I was just in Aki’s DMs like, what the hell is happening? And then I found out they had a server, and then, like, I… I didn’t bully my way to be a guest, I actually think Aki bullied me into being a guest.

And then they bullied us into being part of the show later on. 

[00:12:00] Aki: I think I remember specifically saying, “I don’t think you guys have choices here, but do you want to be a part of it? I’m looking for one, but I will gladly bully the rest of my cast to allow it two.” And they are very easily bullied by me.

“Bully” term light, by the way. I don’t know if you can read my tone, but like, massive jk. But yeah, it was, it was very much just, uh — every time I want something, I jump into our DMs. [Dusty laughs]

[00:12:30] Navaar: As a person who’s been quote unquote bullied into being on Goblets and Gays twice now, I… yeah, it’s been great. 

[00:12:36] Dusty: Yeah, well, when Aki asked us to be permanent– permanent cast, you did it with the meme of the robot from Rogue One is “You are being adopted. Do not resist.” [many people say “Yeah!” or “Yes!”] 

[00:12:53] Navaar: That’s great. 

Introduction to An Unavering Force

[00:12:54] Dusty: And to jump off of that, for An Unwavering Force, that started mostly as an idea of wanting to play character slash Jedi on the run from stuff from Order 66. Which is like, having this life-altering event that literally targets you, and then having to figure out that. And it jumped off of me, my hyperfixation off of Andor, which is just an incredible show, and a podcast that Alyssa showed me called More Civilized Age, which has great people talking about Clone Wars and other shows.

So really, An Unwavering Force is actually Alyssa’s fault. “Fault” quote unquote. But we wanted to make it as a podcast, one, because Star Wars is an incredibly, incredibly white space. And we are an all BIPOC cast. More than half of us are queer. And we wanted to start telling this story from a point of view that’s not heard as often.

And like, even since us starting, like, a lot more has, like, shown up, and like, I’ve been listening and seeing a lot more of the queer space and even more BIPOC people in the Star Wars community. But we really wanted to show that. And also, like, Navaar and I, like, schemed together. Our editing style is we really want to go for a mix of audio drama and actual play. And when I edit it, I actually — my inspiration for how the show gets edited is if you ever listen to a Star Wars audiobook, it’s also, like, incredibly, like, sound effects, it actually sounds like a full on radio [drama].

[00:14:34] Navaar: I just started my first Star Wars audiobook the other day, and it’s a High Republic book, so I didn’t even realize. And I was like, “Oh, yeah, there’s a lot of stuff going on back here!” The guy’s doing voices, it was a whole thing. 

[00:14:45] Dusty: I’m really, like, every time we do a recording, I’m blown away. But, I just like, usually when we put out a show, an episode like, I edit it.

My editing, how I edit, it’s a hyperfixation. So I do it like usually the night before until like really late, but I don’t listen to it after it’s all done. I went back and listened to an episode. I’m like, “Damn, you have a good show.” [Dusty laughs]

[00:15:07] Esther: Yes! [Esther laughs]

[00:15:08] Navaar: Yeah! You should listen to your own stuff! I advocate for that. No, I think it’s, it is funny though, because it is one of those things. Like when you’re creating something, especially like this, and you’re kind of at the beginning through the end of that whole creation process, it really is like you’re — it’s like when people like cook all day, right? And you cook all day and you’re like, “I’m not hungry anymore.” Or it’s like “I’m hungry, but like I need a minute to like process everything that I just did.”

And I think it’s probably in the same way for a lot of people, where it’s like, “Okay, well, I’ve just spent like 14 hours making this thing. Like, I don’t know if I have a minute now where I can sit back and listen to this.” But I always encourage it because I think it’s like– one, I think it’s great to like, if you’re trying to get better as a performer, to go back and listen to like the things that you did, and you know, consider like, if this is something you care about, like improving, then how did we, how did I sound in this moment?

Two, I think — I think it’s great to appreciate your own art. And so, that’s how I always advocate for that. 

Yeah, so, that’s kind of like how it all started for y’all. One of the biggest things that a lot of both home games and podcasts just do not get to do is complete a story. And recently the story of the Blood of Kings ended. And so, uh, among all the other things, this is one of the reasons we want to talk to you. What was that experience like to go through and, like, fully put away characters?

Aki looks contemplative and sad. 

Playing A Character To Level 20 & Concluding Stories

[00:16:36] Dusty: Aki, do you want to go first or last? Because I feel like for you, it was a much longer journey. 

[00:16:41] Aki: Yeah, I want to go last. I feel like I should go last because I’ll probably take the longest. Or the shortest. 

[00:16:51] Navaar: Okay, Alyssa, you’re going to go because Dusty just talked. And this is how GM spotlighting works, folks. Get a lesson wrapped in a lesson. 

[00:16:58] Alyssa: Yeah, so like I said, I started as a guest on Goblets and Gays. And unlike Dusty, I did not bring my guest character on as a full-time character. Because Navaar, you know how you said we move in a group, and you like how we have chemistry? Aki hated my character. Like, Aki the human! Absolutely loathed my terrible rat boy. 

[00:17:19] Aki: There’s a reason why Aki the human hated him so much, by the way. It’s a very valid reason. 

[00:17:26] Alyssa: It was like, the thing that I was brought in to do like, was supposed to be a very short heist, and it dragged out into a very long thing. It was very stressful. So it’s understandable that Aki hated him and that there was like some trauma associated with that.

But that is all to say that when I came on as a full cast member, it was, yeah, just building completely from scratch versus Dusty who will talk about like, bringing someone in from a home game. And that was around level nine.

And I was just like, “Oh, the existing cast–” because I had also been listening to the show and been in Aki’s DMs, sending her like angry messages like, “What are you doing? Why did this episode end here? What are these choices y’all are making?” So it’s, you know, a bunch of younger adventurers and like disaster guests.

And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I will be come in and be like an older like more settled person. And I will help them like make good choices and do self-care.” And then the I think it’s the Dark Archives came out ,the one that had the lich in it. And I was playing a wizard and I as a person very much enjoy secrets, so I was like “Oh… oh no. I’m not gonna be measured at all! I’m aiming towards this now.” But it’s been an incredible journey, just– I’ve never gotten to play a game for that amount of time and covering the amount of ground that we did in Goblets and Gays.

So when we ended, everyone was a Level 20 character, and we introduced dual classing. So the power level there is wild to play, and it was so much fun, and now we are starting over for campaign two, Level One, and it’s just… it was really incredible to get sort of built into the lore of the show and the lore of other characters. And yeah, to sort of focus on bits of the story that like, maybe other people weren’t tugging on because there’s so much going on and it’s not as related to their particular character, so. It was — yeah, it was a lot of fun, and I’m super grateful that I got to come on. 

[00:19:47] Navaar: Dusty? 

[00:19:48] Dusty: Yeah, so, like Alyssa alluded to, when I was asked, I actually jumped into Aubrey’s DMs, like, “Hey, I have this really fun home game character. It’s actually a Monster of the Week character, can we find some shenanigans to bring them into this game?”

And not just like, “Oh, I’m playing the same kind of character.” No. The same character. So, my character more or less — and I guess light Season 2: Episode 5 spoilers — they’re an Isekai character. That was fully intended. But the introduction of my character fundamentally changed the world of, like, Cyrene, which is the name of the Goblets and Gays in Blood of Kings world. And so having her there, come in for that and then later join, it was really, really interesting for like, trying to have them fit in the world. Because I was like, okay, they’re brought into this world. They — a trope, memory loss — don’t remember who they were, but like, trying to learn and going through that.

And then jumping in now because I did bring the same character as my full-time cast, Joanna Sanchez, who is also like an older character, human older character. So like, 50s. But kind of the same thing of Alyssa’s like character Tamsin, where their problems were working towards the same goal, but also didn’t have the same kind of storytelling beats that the rest of the cast did. And personally, my goal, when I brought this character in, was to give every single player character therapy, which I did achieve by the end of the show.

Ending a story, especially one as grandiose — like Blood of Kings literally starts, like how Aki mentioned, it’s a thesis. And it ends on a scale of, like, an epic of how we do it. And going through that journey was really, really exciting and really emotional by the end of it. 

Like, Season 4, we do so much in that, because I also feel like as a group, we got much more comfortable doing a show together. And so we knew, like, Aubrey knew what beat she wanted to hit, and we knew how to get there. So it was, I don’t know, it’s like the same thing you do if you do anything for three years. When it’s almost done, it’s great, it’s exciting, it’s emotional, you’re sad, you have feelings about it.

But by the end of the season it really felt like we got to tell a really cool story. Like a really good story, an emotional story that spans like a bunch of different story beats and emotional beats. And like stories from both literally and like, metaphorically, a younger generation and an older generation.

Yeah, I could just keep making analogies, but in the end, it was a really good emotional journey.

[00:22:54] Aki: I did eeny, meeny, miny, moe in the corner to figure out if I was going to use spoilers or not. I don’t know what’s a spoiler anymore! So, spoilers won. So, just spoilers. Especially for Season 4. 

The little story to a grand epic is a really great way to actually put it.

I started from ground zero, is the best way to put it. Built it all the way up. The way I originally thought this was supposed to go down is that we were gonna play, like, the equivalent of one season, maybe two. And so I built my character, like, narratively to fit that. And thankfully, because I built her to fit that when Aubrey said, “No, I want it to be Critical Role long,” I had ways to make it Critical Role long. 

I need you to understand that I ripped off parts of the Dragon Prince and then the two year break they took was enough for them to still beat me for what I ripped off and I couldn’t do. 

I had the thing I needed and wanted to do, my main plot point, in Season One. And I didn’t get to do it until Season Four because that’s how much we packed in and that’s like how much other things I could pack in for my character.

It was great! I think of her fondly. That’s my, that is my baby girl, you know? My character was also the first time I decided to play someone of my entire ethnic background. So that was, that was really nice, not gonna lie. 

And then we got to like, Level 20. The things that happened… the things that happened in Season 4 were things that I knew were going to happen, but I thought it was gonna be like in Season 3.

But like, it’s okay that it happened in Season 4. We become gods, because we kill gods. And I was like, “Oh my god, this is great!” And as a, as a player, I played this game back in like 2017 with Aubrey, with some of the original cast –not, not everybody, that was originally playing was still there — but like, we got to revisit the world again.

And so we knew what was up! But like, at the same time, like, you know, it was, it’s really nice that like, we completed the world, quote unquote. We completed that, because we didn’t complete the original story. We got bored and moved on, like a regular home game would, right? And where we stopped was okay, too. It’s not like it was like a unsatisfying end or anything, but it’s just so nice to actually say, “Oh my god, we completed this place.” And I don’t have any hang-ups, like I thought I would, about not being able to play here again. It’s a lot of time and investment. Technically, my investment is beyond three years, too.

So it’s like, you know, it’s a lot. It’s a lot. But also, it’s so nice to say that I’ve completed it, and then I can look at all my other projects and go, “I don’t even know if I’m gonna want to finish you now! If I finish y’all, like, that would be so nice on a resume. And if I don’t, I have like one very nice thing that is forever.”

And also, we won an award! So that’s extra approval. Do you know how much — like, my ego is like very high, and that’s simply because the spite was even higher. And now it’s like matching and it’s, it’s, it’s very good. It’s very, very, very good. I think also the stories we were able to tell as a group, the hurdles we were able to climb over, all of that gets packed into a little four season, it’s not a little, into a four season actual epic.

So like that… all of that, it is a very fulfilling feeling, you know? It’s really nice to have. Also, I can– [laughs] the last thing I’ll point out is that I can tell exactly where my depression spiral started in my art! And I can see the sadness, and then I can see myself improve. And that is just a me thing. That’s a, “Oh, look at me. I did it!” kind of thing. Once again, more of an ego thing, but like, you know, people should have really big egos. I think sometimes. [laughs] 

[00:27:08] Navaar: I love that. 

Did you have another question, Esther? 

Differences Between Playing In Actual Plays and Home Games

[00:27:13] Esther: I do, I do. I am thinking about so many things. Just like how… how cool it is to start with the seed of a story or like a smaller-scale thing and then have it grow into this epic. That is so amazing. So amazing to be able to finish something and feel like it’s a complete whole. I just, I love that. I think that’s the coolest experience. I hope we get it with my AP one day. One day!

I’m curious, I think a lot of our listeners are part of, like, a home game. What would you say are some of the differences in playing Pathfinder 2e as a home game versus playing it as an actual play? What distinguishes the system as being like, a good one for an AP? And just what distinguishes play in those two scenarios? 

[00:28:06] Alyssa: As GM and editor, Dusty, you should go first. 

[00:28:10] Dusty: I, I think about this all the time, actually. One of the best things I like about Pathfinder is it’s customized… customability… customization! Customization, I got there. Of like, what you could do both narratively and mechanically.

Like having both the Archetypes that you could get into, and –you could go into Pathfinder with I feel like nearly any idea, and you could both like, not even make it work narratively, but also like, mechanically. For instance, we’re doing Star Wars with Pathfinder 2e. Not Starfinder 2e, because it wasn’t around when we started. But we’ll talk about that later. 

But I think the main difference, just in general, between a home game and like, a podcast game… when you’re doing actual play, you tend to be much more deliberate about what your character is doing. In the home game, it’s much more relaxed. It’s a home game, like it should be relaxed. It’s fun. Rants all the time. 

We have rants in our show. They go to the blooper reel, which is still in progress. But also, because it’s essentially a different form of radio drama, if you do it enough you get really practiced at working on your descriptions. Because you have to both make it work like, for the person you’re talking to, but also make it work for everyone that is listening into it, so you’re trying to see the same thing.

Which doesn’t always translate. We’ve had it for I think Goblets and Gays, where people listened, interpreted one thing as something else. Just because that happens with the audio medium. And like things that — like, for instance, me? Love Pathfinder 2e combat. I love the nitty-gritty of it. Not as great for an actual play.

And so sometimes we’ve done like, actual combat. Like in Unwavering Force, we actually skip a lot of actual combat for a long time, I feel. We use, like, some combat mechanics. We do– like, we call it like, narrative combat. 

But if we do, like, “Okay, I’m gonna bring y’all into an actual combat,” that’s a whole session. And sometimes those sessions — we have one coming up that is a combat session, but truly may be one of the best episodes of our show, because so much happens. But we mainly try to focus on a narrative, on roleplay. 

Because also, like, we’re doing heavy roleplay. We’ll have episodes of like, An Unwavering Force, where we don’t roll a dice for like 45 to 50 minutes. And even like in Blood of Kings, Goblets and Gays, like all the other stuff we’re working on, we’ve gotten much more like…

It took over time because Goblets and Gays was doing it for longer. We also like, “Okay, we’re going to have scenes, and this is just like stuff we want to tell narratively.” Like we’re playing a game, but we’re also… we’re telling a story. I think for actual plays, usually– it depends which kind you’re making. How I do it, I put story above mechanics. But some people like mechanics above stories. Those are like two different genres of shows entirely.

I feel like I said a lot but absolutely nothing. 

[00:31:25] Navaar: I’m just going to come in as the host just to affirm and add on to some of those things. I think like, there’s a lot of intentionality that goes into making an actual play. Or there should be.

And I think that when you don’t have intentionality, then you end up with something that is very close to a home game. But I think anytime that we’re making something that’s going to be recorded and distributed, I think that there has to be at least a level of consideration that you are creating entertainment. And that doesn’t mean that you need to become Critical Role or whatever, but it does mean you need to at least consider the fact that it’s for entertainment. So if you spend 40 minutes arguing about a rule, that might be something that people will just stop listening to.

And so you have to think about that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think that beyond that like basic step, I think that there is like a very much a focus of like, “Okay, but are we doing this in a narrative way of entertainment? Or are we doing this like as a quote unquote ‘actual play’ where we’re going to cut out stuff that just takes too long?”

And there are shows that are like that, and there are people who really love that specific kind of thing that don’t want something that’s closer to like, an improvised audio drama. And I think it’s fine to have both. 

[00:32:41] Aki: I’m going to addy add add on to that. Something that I think people should think about a little bit more when it comes to — if you want an actual play and you would like people to listen to it, to find you, you should think a little bit about marketing.

I’m not saying become a social-media-savvy tech genius and then buy Twitter Blue. No, don’t do that. I’m saying, think about: do you want to compete with all the other D&D 5e shows, for example? There’s nothing wrong with it. More power to you. But if you are expecting to blow up and get sponsorship deals, you need to be a little bit more realistic.

I say do it, but maybe add a different element to it. Like, you add monster sounds to your segment and they are really good. You know? Like, that is something else. And some people, they’re gonna love that! The good burr in the brain? Yeah. 

What we did was, at the time with Goblets and Gays, we did not find much in terms of Pathfinder. I think Pathfinder 2e like, just dropped Core book stuff. And we were like, “Okay, well, we actually have a good shot at building an audience here.” And then around the time when we wanted to drop it, one, we dropped it — our anniversary is my birthday. Two, the same time, Hades the game dropped. 

Hades is Ancient-Greek-myth-inspired, and so is Blood of Kings. So, me as the artist, I said, “Let me go mimic their style!” And yeah, that worked. The, the, the art style of Hades has influenced me, like, deeply. I genuinely like it, but also it’s pretty baller we were dropping it around the same time. It was like, “Ha ha, look at that! Tee tee tee tee tee!” And we got it all. And then we’re like, and we’re gay! And, and all the gays were like, “Oh, finally, my people! Like, you know, like, it was, it was enough. It was enough. Everybody was inside too, so you had to listen to us. Um, so like, you know, like, there was a lot of, a lot of things factored up. 

Now, with some of our new stuff, we’re doing Remastered, and uh, one, that’s not a secret. Two, it’s not a lot of remastered Pathfinder 2e Remastered content in terms of the audio sphere here. So that is another, like — I wouldn’t say it’s tactical genius, but it’s definitely a very good idea, I think.

I say this as another way to make myself feel better, because I’m not just doing one, I’m doing three separate Pathfinder 2e Remastered things. Two of them I’m a player, one of them I’m playing Curse of Strahd. I thought that was a good idea, to, to friggin’ make that. And then we had to re-learn, everybody had to re-learn on that one. But like, you know, you win some, you lose some. Either way, marketing.

[00:35:42] Dusty: Aki, just, just wait for like six more months and we’ll be learning a new system for Unwavering. 

[00:35:47] Aki: I hate you! Don’t do this to me. 

[00:35:49] Dusty: You’re gonna love it actually, I love Starfinder, so. 

[00:35:52] Navaar: I don’t know this, so people who listen, like, who play Starfinder, don’t come after me. This is just me repeating hearsay that I’ve heard. But I feel like, uh, in Starfinder there’s like a stamina system, which I think would work great for having duels, because I think like, part of the reason like I’ve homebrewed stuff that just hasn’t come up is like, it doesn’t make sense for like, two Jedis to like, “I cut you, and then I cut you, and then I cut you for 60 points.”

It’s like, yeah, no, you cut them one time and that’s bad. And it should be like that. But there should still be stakes, too. So yeah, if they keep that, I think that would be really cool to mess with, because it helps add into the very specific style of game that we’re playing. 

[00:36:33] Aki: All I know is that Dusty’s weak because we could have been playing Honey Heist this whole time.

This whole time! 

[00:36:39] Dusty: That’s what we do one-shots for! 

[00:36:41] Navaar: Could we? 

[00:36:42] Dusty: We’ve been corrupted. 

[00:36:44] Aki: Dark side! The Light side! Those are our sides. 

[00:36:47] Alyssa: Laser swords and feelings. 

[00:36:49] Aki: Yeah, oh my god. Brothers? Something else. I don’t know. Okay, I don’t know Star Wars. I only care about the Mandalorian. 

[00:36:56] Navaar: But I think that’s another good thing too, like a good point as well. Pathfinder is built for like, playing for years.

Which I think like, when you’re talking about making a podcast, that is a style of telling a story longform, right? And so it is like, it’s built for that. And I think when people come in with the expectation of listening to a Pathfinder TV show, that expectation is: I’m gonna hear combat, and that combat’s gonna take a while, and that’s just a part of it.

[00:37:24] Esther: I loved so much that you all talked about. First of all, I really relate to this audio drama version of Pathfinder 2e, where there’s like a lot of roleplay. That’s what we do in Chromythica. You’ll have huge stretches of time without a roll, even huger stretches of time without combat. And there’s definitely a genre of Pathfinder 2e actual play that is like, the expectation is you have a lot of crunch, you have a lot of rules and combat-focused stuff.

And I just love anybody in the space who is also bringing something different. So y’all, if you want a menu of three shows that bring you a slightly different style of roleplay, look up Goblets and Gays, An Unwavering Force, and Chromythica!

And Aki, I love the point you made about marketing. I think there’s such a strong tie-in to what you were saying with like, being conscious of who your audience is, and knowing who you are pitching the AP to. And it’s wonderful if a group outside that core audience finds you and loves you, but one of the things we were very intentional with in Chromythica is thinking about like, who do we want to find us? The millennial queers and folks of color. 

And if other folks find us, great. But like, those are the stories that we as a cast are interested in telling. So I, I just think that that’s such an important point that a lot of folks skip over when making an AP, and thank you for bringing it in. 

[00:39:02] Dusty: You know, going off of that, that’s something that I also completely forgot, something that we were also very intentional about, is that our show that’s Star Wars, only two of the characters are like stereotypical like, Jedi.

Navaar is one of them. I’m sure you’ve heard of him, An Unwavering Force, Onhar de Luna, one of my favorite characters. But actually, when I pitch our show, the way I do it– it’s a Star Wars show, we’re doing Pathfinder 2E, one of our players is a trash man. It’s Aki. They’re playing a sanitation worker. And that immediately gets people like, “what are you talking about?”

And so like, me personally — because I also like, Andor and going into other like, stuff — I wanted to talk about things that weren’t like, just the Jedi, just the Light side, Dark side thing. Because that’s all of Star Wars. So that’s a very big thing. 

Like Alyssa, you’re playing, someone that does like, the Nightsister magic.

Theta, who’s a person that was in the beginning of the show — they had to drop due to like, scheduling stuff — but, like, they were a Chiss. aAnd now our new character, uh, who’s played by Katrina, her name is Lua. They’re like, a rebel spy,. But also, the, use, like, singing magic. So we, we do like, a big stretch of things that’s not normally seen, and also we just have fun with it.

‘Cause there’s so much stuff in Star Wars. There’s like 50 years of Star Wars stuff.

[00:40:21] Navaar: Yeah, it’s fun to like –here’s an IP that people love, and here is different ways to like, look at it. And I think like, when you look at like, the TTRPG space that is present on Twitter — which I know is not the entire audience space — but like, if we’re talking about those people that we as a group of people who do stuff in the TTRPG space are aware of or in communication with and sometimes in community with…

I think when you look at like, people that are people of color and people that are part of the queer community, there are aspects of those stories that we want to be able to tell that aren’t being told, at all or often in something like Star Wars, and even in fantasy in a lot of ways too.

To have, you know, at least here’s a few more voices that are like telling the story, that are living these experiences, that are going to be different than what you get out of like, a Luke Skywalker, right? Like that’s not who Onhar is. Onhar is like… I guess yeah, he is like a moody young guy. And that might be like where the line is drawn. 

But I think that there’s like a lot of aspects of of our characters that we talk about things like family and community and, and loss and, like, all these, like, really, like, fun stuff that I think we have a unique perspective on. And that perspective is important to, like, get out into the world.

One of the things that, that you mentioned earlier, Alyssa, is that you’re now playing Level One characters, and I think, like, this is a great conversation just in terms of Pathfinder. Because I have my own opinions about how low-level characters work in Pathfinder, and I’m curious for the three of you, like, going back to Level One, how does that feel? What’s that been like? 

Playing Low-Level Pathfinder Characters

[00:42:02] Alyssa: So bad, it’s so bad. No, it’s not bad. [group laughs] Going from Level 20 to Level 1 is definitely a shock. However, I think that it’s fun to get to sort of build out and, you know, theorycraft and say like, “Ooh, in, you know, three levels, I would really want to take this feat and go down this path.”

But by the time you actually get there and play like, who knows where your character will be headed and if that’s still thematically appropriate. And maybe some new book will come out and completely offer something totally different and change the trajectory of what you were doing. So I think that it’s, it’s very cool and fun. I wish I had more hit points and more things to do! But no, it’s a fun shift from the very, very high-level play. And I think that you do have to be sort of more creative and clever with it, right? Like, you can’t just throw a Wish spell around. You have to be like, thinking about how to interact with the world in ways that aren’t necessarily sort of strict combat or even actions that you can find in your little like ‘here are some available actions tab.’

So I think that low-level characters really do invite a level of creative play that you don’t necessarily need to rely on at higher levels. But I mean, at the same time, like if you have high-level spells, there’s a bunch of ways to use those, but. 

[00:43:28] Navaar: It’s a good, it’s a good mental reset.


[00:43:32] Aki: I think it’s humbling. 

[00:43:34] Navaar: That’s it…. yeah, coming from Level 20, yeah. 

[00:43:38] Aki: Listen, yeah, yeah, from Level 20 — I want to state that my character had over 20 spell slots, because of the dual classing plus archetypes and dedications. And I also want to fully state that I kept accidentally nerfing my character. I kept mis-picking because there’s so much to do, and so I was nerfing my character core-stat-wise as well. Like I was doing a lot of weird things up until the end. I, I basically– like that was consistent, nerfing myself. But also– you all play with me or have heard — I roll like a god! So I am very confident all the time while playing because I’m not scared of my dice. I truly think they’re scared of me. There’s no way it can be that consistent. 

Yeah, I,= like, you know, I’m not worried about that. I usually get worried when I play with the rest of you. Because why do you all suck so bad when it comes to rolling the click clacks? I don’t understand, okay? 

Because we’re just mortals, okay? [group laughs]

You guys will be like, “Oh, oh, I rolled, I rolled like, that’s a total of six!” And I’m like, “You have 20 sides and extra stats!” You know, like I get, I get, I get confused, but not really. 

When you start at a lower level, I like to look at the numbers and go, “Wow. Uh oh.” Because like, before I can worry about things like, “Oh, well, it’s okay if I roll a 10 on the die ’cause I already have like a plus 11 in my pocket.” Whereas now it’s like, I’m still good. Like I can still like, you know, I’ll get like a really good roll for our level, being like Level 2, right? But sometimes I see the number and I give myself a heart attack because like, 17 looks very low. And then you’ll be like, “Oh, you did it, you knocked it out of the park!”

What do you mean?! No, I didn’t! Don’t lie to me like that! Okay, like, you know, I’m used to rolling 30s. 40s, actually. You know, like, it’s, those numbers. What do you mean, 17’s gonna like, way overdo it? Shut up. Stop lying to me. 

I also agree with the creativity part because you gotta think… a lot of stuff. I like bargaining with my GMs. Or specifically, I’m, I’m a very, very nice, sweet, good girl. So I ask permission to flavor text, and then I immediately double check how people are with safety tools, because if I’m allowed to go for it, I go for it. So, you know, it’s– I feel like on lower levels, like a lot more of that happens. Because you know, like, you can do a lot. Like John Wick with a pencil, I can do a lot! You know, it’s one of those vibes that I get at lower levels. Same thing at higher levels, but it’s more like, I can do a lot and I don’t have to justify it, you know? I don’t actually have to justify the Wish spell too much. But I’m gonna justify… god, three-action Heal. Like, that’s the first thing that came to my head. Three-action Heal is very reasonable, but like, you know, things, things like that, things like that.

[00:46:51] Dusty: So, low-level Pathfinder is interesting. Jumping off both what Alyssa and Aki said, like, you do have to be more creative. It’s also just, you have to really think like, “Okay, how committed to something do I want to be?” Because for Pathfinder, you could, you could min-max real well in Pathfinder. Do you always want to?

Like, sometimes yes! Because, you know, big number make brain go brr. But also like, I either min-max or I love being like the jack of all trades. I like to think, “Oh yeah, like, I could do this, oh I could do this.”

But also, one thing that I think about more often is, like, running games for, like, low-level. Unwavering Force, we haven’t had to this much because we started y’all Level 3 dual-classed. Y’all are already, like, titans in the face of mortals. That’s just how dual-classing Level 3 is in Pathfinder. I’ve been running– just started running — like, for Level 1 stuff. And, like, jumping between them, like, “Okay. Now I have to get my mind out of the, the, like enemy or NPC that could do a hundred damage, like on a Nat 20.” So we have to like go back ’cause like, what DC makes sense? What challenges make sense? Like, I have to like readjust sometimes, like, “Oh, if I want to do this, like how easy is a, like a DC 15 for this on Level 1? Oh, that’s actually sometimes harder than you Like, depending how statted out of the character list.” So, adjusting like that on the fly. 

[00:48:28] Alyssa: Speaking of min-maxing, that’s my answer for APs versus home games, is that I am an optimizer at heart.

I really want characters to do good because unlike Aki, I have abysmal dice luck. So I need, I need those good stats. I need those good skills. But if you’re, you know, telling a story first and foremost, there’s really a lot of sort of times where making thematic picks is more important than making like, the optimal pick. Which hurts my soul a little bit, but it’s also really, it’s nice to be like, “Oh, this isn’t the best thing, but it really, really fits and I love the flavor of this”.

[00:49:09] Aki: I’m also a min-maxer. I just wanted to jump in and be like, “Me too, me too, actually! Yay!” 

[00:49:15] Navaar: Me too, guys, it’s me too. I’m in this conversation. 

[00:49:19] Dusty: I remember the other thing! Aki mentioned bargaining. Also, like, going through the different, like, um, Unwavering Force. Surprisingly, incredibly homebrewed! But one thing we do, regular Pathfinder mechanic: Hero Points. Let’s do a reroll. It’s like kind of like inspiration. 

We have a homebrew rule where something that I took from a home game is a Hero Point, you can either reroll it or use it to bump up to the next level of success, if you’re unsure. But I also have my players, uh, something I take from Blades in the Dark, a Devil’s Bargain Hero Point. Which is just like really fun that, maybe not something I do for a home game, but narratively for a podcast? Ooh, the things you coan do with the Devil’s Bargain!

[00:50:02] Navaar: I’m dealing with my Devil’s Bargain and it’s been 8 episodes, okay? And that’s still not taken care of. 

[00:50:09] Aki: Devil’s Bargain is my favorite mechanic, like, that I’ve learned through APs, period. I love, I love making deals with forces beyond me for more power. 

Fail States in Pathfinder 2e

[00:50:24] Navaar: I have a new question that I just thought about because I just produced an AP that is not using Pathfinder 2e.

And one of the things that has really driven the narrative a lot is that there are interesting fail states. So when you fail, things happen in a way that drives the narrative. And I’m curious for all of you actually, Esther included, do you feel like Pathfinder 2e has interesting fail states? Or do you feel like when you’re, even when you’re making that narrative AP, your flavoring fails more than you’re given, um, something to do with them in the game?

[00:51:04] Alyssa: Uh, Navaar, what was the system of that new AP that you’re producing? 

[00:51:08] Navaar: Uh, it’s called The Corrupted. It’s by this like, little designer. His name’s Navaar Seik- Jackson. Yeah, anyway, just check it out. We’ll talk about it at the end. It’s fine.

[00:51:16] Alyssa: No, so I want to say first of all that I adore The Corrupted and I– specifically, the idea of fail states and stress.

And mechanically incurring stress and having that impact, like, tangibly your relationships with other characters, I think is fantastic and is something that I’m sort of carrying over into roleplay in other games because it’s like, yes, obviously this makes sense. You’re like, extremely freaked out by what’s happening and you’re going to lash out. Like, of course you are. 

But it was really helpful for me to sort of see that mechanized to realize like, “Oh, this is something that I could be bringing in more into a roleplay that I’m doing.” But as far as Pathfinder, I feel like consequences– like the mechanical consequences, like, “Oh, you’re stupefied because your spell backfires or something” definitely feels more mechanical than narrative. One thing that we do on Goblets and Gays that I do really like is use crit cards or like, the crit deck. So if you get a critical success or a critical failure, then something else happens. So it’s not just you get double damage, maybe it’s, you know, “Oh no, they cut off your hand, or…” 

[00:52:27] Navaar: Those are so fun and so dangerous sometimes.

Yeah. We use those in our home game too, and it’s like, “Uh… uh, can we pick a different one?” 

[00:52:37] Aki: I need you to know we got a — on Goblins and Gays, we have a player who consistently rolls bad all the time. If I have all the good luck, they have all the bad luck. And they’re Italian! Like, oh my god! [group laughs] I promise the Italian thing means something.

Like, I, they need you to know, like — this is a spoiler, but not really. They started speaking Italian to the dice, and now they’re rolling better. So maybe it was a language barrier this whole time. But until then, for three years, it’s been nothing but absolutely horrendous rolls to the point where we all jump into their DMs and go, “Please cheat! Please!”

It’s not — it’s so, it’s so funny. It’s so sad. They, the crit deck has made them break their hands several times. It’s the same one hand as well. And they’re a monk. I just, they roll that one in particular. Worse things have happened as well. It’s just… it’s so, the crit deck is so much fun.

[00:53:37] Alyssa: They literally got an automatic death because of a crit deck roll. 

[00:53:41] Aki: We had to change that rule. We had to change that rule because when it happened, it happened, and we rolled with it. And then afterwards we all like sat in our like little sad internet circle of shame and we went, okay, we should maybe change that actually because what if we all get it one day? How are we gonna do this? 

[00:54:00] Dusty: So, are y’all saying we should add that to a certain show about Star Wars? 

[00:54:03] Navaar: I don’t know. We have enough problems as it is. 

[00:54:06] Dusty: Oh, I heard a yes… 

[00:54:08] Alyssa: Well, maybe if you stop making Devil Bargains, Navaar, we wouldn’t have problems. 

[00:54:11] Navaar: I only made two, and I’m paying for both of them. We all are.

[00:54:15] Aki: I don’t care if we add it, but I do have a Devil’s Bargain if I ever really botch a roll. I have one. I have it saved. It’s in my heart and I’m not going to say it. Yeah, I’m not going to say it because when it happens, I know Dusty’s going to say yes. Or, or, or, Dusty’s going to pause the recording right there and go, Aki, what?

So it’s going to be fun regardless. 

[00:54:38] Dusty: But Aki, how do you feel about conditions in Pathfinder or other shows? 

[00:54:42] Aki: I like I like them! But… [Dusty laughs] I, I like them. I, I do find them more mechanical, but I kinda like them that way, because you’re doing something mechanical. Like, like, that’s the way I, I rationalize it. So if you fail a roll, nothing happens, that makes sense. If you critically fail, you might have like indigestion or something like that. And like I’m, I’m very here for stuff like that. I encourage people to get creative about them, though. Because it might not always be fun to be constantly Sickened, for example. Like, I would like a reason to why I’m Sickened. I had to make it so that I’m just, my character’s just bad at throwing up.

And you know, lines-and-veils-wise, that starts getting on people. How come I can’t do this? And then I just can’t make the DC. Why? Why? I should be Sickened for like a different reason, I think. Like, you know, like maybe the — I don’t know. I’m dizzy. Yeah. You know, like, like something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rather than just, you know, oh, that smell, P. U., vomit. You know, like, no thank you. Yeah. 

[00:55:48] Navaar: I do think conditions are… when people talk about like, “Oh, like, Pathfinder 2e is hard to learn!” I’m like, it’s really not. I think the only thing that I would say, like, that is a learning curve is conditions, because there’s so many of them. And they’re not always very well explained as to like, what, what is happening to my character at this moment, so. Esther, you’re not off the hook. How do you feel about Pathfinder 2e fail states? 

[00:56:09] Esther: Dusty also!

[00:56:11] Navaar: Yeah. 

[00:56:11] Esther: You didn’t go yet, right? 

[00:56:13] Dusty: Yeah, but I’ll go last. 

[00:56:14] Esther: Okay, great. I completely agree that for me, conditions are still one of the bigger learning curves. And just remembering to like, bring them into play as a GM or as a player is something that I– it’s, it’s an edge of mine, that I’m still growing into.

I feel like my answer about failure is that it’s dependent on the type of story you want to tell and the type of storytellers at the table. Because if you just want to fail something and be like, “Well, it didn’t work, and I’m moving on to the next thing,” that’s totally fine. That’s a totally valid method of play and storytelling.

I think for an audio drama, my tendency is to do that sometimes, and then make failure more interesting other times, to like really make it matter and mean something. But there has to be that intentionality there. And it can look, it can look different! Like, maybe failure means something goes terribly wrong, or maybe it means you are trying to Recall Knowledge and you fail the check– and you still recall something, but you misinterpret it, and it leads you down a direction that is gonna maybe not be the best for the party long- term, or will cause problems down the road. And I think there’s, there’s ways to make failure seed future stories that are really…. for me, are really fun and necessary in an AP. So that’s my answer for that.

[00:57:47] Dusty: For me, ever since I started roleplaying or playing TTRPGs, especially like running them, for me, conditions, they have to like, make sense for my brain– for it to work. And so, like, this is gonna tie into something in a second, but I’m a big fan of bringing your own conditions. Where like, you make it, have it make sense, like, narratively. For instance, like, if someone gets critically hit with an electrical attack, this is not in the text, but like, just narratively, it makes sense you drop what you’re holding. Or you, you critically fail a Dodge, or like an Athletics or a Fortitude like, “Oh, you were trying to do this, and in doing so, you, like, knock yourself prone.” Like, I don’t care what the text says. Narratively, that makes sense. 

And I think bringing that into an actual play space, just makes it one, flow better. ‘Cause like, “Oh, you critically failed. So you’re still there, but you have mechanically like, a Stupefied 2 condition.” And then moving on– if you do move on– everyone’s like, “Oh, what was that? I guess we’ll get to it later.” And then you don’t. 

But conditions in general I find a really good like, mechanical step. One thing that for like, other games — like we actually, this whole group, we’re part of like an Alien game, Alien RPG for Goblets and Gays. Conditions in there are wild and also like, narratively change the whole scene, the whole game of what you’re doing.

One thing that actually, going to a different actual play that Aki and I are part of, Bring Your Own Mech — you should bring your own mech!– is a Lancer actual play. And so like, they have conditions there for both the players and then like, when you’re in your mechs. And those conditions could like, change. Like there’s a — you hit a high enough stress, and then oh, your weapon explodes! Now you don’t have something for this combat. Oh, your like, targeting systems are down, something of that sort. Which like, that in itself, both narratively and mechanically, just changes how you have to continue on with the scene. And I bring a lot of stuff from different games into Pathfinder, mainly for like, narrative sense, ’cause just telling players over and over, you’re Stupefied 1, Stupefied 2, you’re Fatigued, you’re Wounded, you’re… what’s the other condition I could do? Dazzled! You’re nauseous — I don’t think that’s a condition. I think it’s called Sickened. But, you know, same thing. 

[01:00:09] Navaar: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think my biggest gripe with Pathfinder and D&D for the longest time is that you have to make a Reflex save to avoid an area of effect, but you never move as a character.

And that like, it makes my eye twitch. Because how are you using your reflexes to stand still? I don’t understand and I want it fixed. 

[01:00:33] Aki: You hop! You hop in place. You duck! 

[01:00:33] Navaar: But I think that’s one of those things. You hop in place. 

Um, yeah, anyway! Well, Esther, unless you have any other questions… 

[01:00:42] Esther: I mean, I could keep us here all night with the amount of questions I have, but I feel like we’ve covered a lot of ground. and we always like to conclude by asking folks to tell us where we can find you and your stuff.

War of Immortals: Who Will Die? 

[01:00:57] Esther: Oh, wait, wait, wait, there is one more question! Sorry. Before I go into that, there’s a question I’ve been using to end the show with a lot of people before the “where can we find you on the internet? Tell us about your work.” There’s an upcoming War of Immortals storyline in Pathfinder, and we know that one of the Core 20 deities is gonna die. And so I’m curious, do y’all have theories about who it’s gonna be?

[01:01:22] Dusty: Aki, you first, you write for them. [laughs] 

[01:01:27] Aki: Not like that! I’m actually looking at a list right now, because they released a bingo type of thing, and I’m actually looking at all the deities so I can pick one. 

[01:01:37] Dusty: That’s what I’m looking for right now, because my brain’s like, I know like five of them off the top of my head. 

[01:01:42] Aki: I have it bookmarked, one second.

[01:01:43] Navaar: I hope it’s not one of the ones that follow me on Twitter, that would be devastating for my follower count.

[01:01:50] Dusty: So for me, one thing that I think would be interesting, ’cause I think they marked Pharasma as safe, right? Is that what…

[01:02:00] Esther: I think today, yeah. 

[01:02:02] Dusty: Today, okay. Yeah, that’s what I thought. I think, just because… I don’t know why, I think maybe Desna. I don’t know! Vibes feel right. 

[01:02:13] Alyssa: Hey Dusty, why do you hate lesbians?

[01:02:15] Navaar: Yeah, why do you hate lesbians, Dusty? That’s a wild thing to say on this show. 

[01:02:19] Dusty: Here’s the thing, it’s not… it’s not my, I’m not the person making them dead. I’m not the person fundamentally changing the world, I just think, like… yeah.

[01:02:26] Navaar: Dusty, when you’re wrong, everybody’s gonna listen to this and know that you were wrong about that and chose Desna, because you hate lesbians.

[01:02:32] Dusty: And then, you know that I’m wrong here, but you know that I’m right in An Unwavering Force. 

[01:02:35] Navaar: Who do you think, Alyssa?

[01:02:40] Alyssa: I am not super familiar with Pathfinder like, core lore, but I did play Wrath of the Righteous, mostly. So… Unfortunately, the only gods I can pull are the lesbians. Um, so I’m going to pass. 

[01:02:58] Dusty: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I’m changing my answer. Who’s the capitalism god? That one. 

[01:03:02] Alyssa: Abadar?

[01:03:03] Dusty: Yeah, that one. 

[01:03:04] Navaar: Yeah, Abadar. Yeah. 

[01:03:06] Dusty: That makes sense. No more capitalism. 

[01:03:07] Navaar: Deserves to die, right? 

[01:03:08] Dusty: Remastered. No more capitalism. 

[01:03:11] Navaar: I honestly, I’m– I honestly just think it’s Torag and I think we’re just, we’re too deep into it that we just don’t believe that that’s who it is. 

[01:03:18] Dusty: Because of like, future stuff? 

[01:03:20] Navaar: I think, I mean, like… I just feel like when it all happened, we heard about it. I feel like Luis even mentioned Torag. I don’t know, it’s a whole mess. 

[01:03:29] Dusty: Well, because there’s — I don’t know. It’s a whole mess. 

[01:03:32] Navaar: I know, it’s a whole mess. 

[01:03:33] Aki: So I’m… the way my head is working with X-ing it, because for fun, I would be like, it’d be so funny if they killed Caiden Caylean. They’d just go, “You! You embarrassing twink, get back here!” You know, it’d be so funny. I don’t think they’re gonna do that though, because he is quite literally the funniest god.

So, I think all the objectively evil ones are safe. Because you wouldn’t do that unless the story, it’s like “We’re going to kill a god, and it’s gonna be that evil!” And that that makes sense, right? But like I don’t think they’re gonna lean that way because Pathfinder, kind of little like nnh? You know? So, um, I think all the objectively evil-looking ones are safe.

I think all the dead ones — or like the ones that embody death in some way — are safe. Um, so like my girl Urgathoa is like, fine. And I also think, I don’t think they’re gonna kill the sun. I don’t. I just don’t. I don’t think — Paizo, I don’t think you got the balls to kill the sun. Um…

[01:04:33] Dusty: Oh, now it’s a challenge. 

[01:04:34] Aki: I mean, yeah, do it. Prove me wrong! Or prove me right. Like, at the end of the day, one of us is gonna have a party. Um… [Dusty laughs] That being said, I do think Desna is a really good one that they’ll kill off. They put so much effort into like, bringing her into the spotlight, I think it makes sense that you’re gonna kill someone’s dreams. I think it makes sense for… iomedae. But like, honestly, she’d just be following her legacy at that point, so. Yeah. My heart says it’s gonna be woman.

Um, the other part is like, there’s a whole god about being sacrificial.

[01:05:12] Dusty: I mean, there’s also the god of righteous revolution. That would be a perfect, like, stand in.

[01:05:17] Aki: Yeah, like, I think if it’s not… like, either they’re gonna kill your dreams, or they’re going to kill somebody who’s actually meant for it like, and where people won’t actually blow up about it. But if they kill the sun? They kill the sun? Damn! I don’t know what I’ll do, but I’ll do something. I’ll do, I’ll make sure it’s public. I don’t know. They kill the, they kill the sun? They kill the sun, I’ll, I’ll actually stand by it. I’ll be so happy about it. I won’t be happy about it. I like, I like my, my little lesbian polyam thing going on, okay. But like, I… but if they had the balls to kill the sun? That’s what I mean. That’s, that’s, that’s what I’m trying to like, if they did, oh my god! That would be a cool, that would be really, really cool. 

[01:06:05] Esther: Luis Loza, listening to this show, frantically taking notes.

[01:06:08] Aki: If you kill the sun…! I don’t think, I think Serenrae is the safest in my heart! But if you kill the sun! Oh, oh, I’ll walk around, you know, like, I’ll! 


[01:06:22] Dusty: Aki about to get a DM, “So like, about what you said…” 

[01:06:28] Aki: Oh god, but I think, you know, I think my Pallid Princess is safe. I think my Mother of Monsters is safe. I don’t care about anybody else, objectively.

But yeah, I think– I also, Eternal Twink is safe for sure. That’s Caiden Cailean. There’s no way he’s anything bigger. He’s like a stick. 

[01:06:46] Esther: I’m calling him the Eternal Twink forever now, thank you. 

[01:06:50] Dusty: That should be the name of this episode. 

[01:06:54] Alyssa: The Eternal Twink. 

[01:06:57] Navaar: Um, yeah. It’s hard. I don’t know. I’m just ready to be surprised and I’ll accept it.

[01:07:05] Esther: Yeah, on the note of the Eternal Twink and accepting it, where can we find you all online and what are you working on that we can go check out? 


[01:07:16] Dusty: I’ll go first this time since I went last last time. Well, you can find most of us at An Unwavering Force, a Star Wars story using Pathfinder 2nd Edition. That’s @Unwavering Force. You can find us most places. You can go to our Patreon at Unwavering Force. We have some stuff that should be coming out, it just requires editing. So it will get there. Also, Goblets and Gays!

Also keep an eye out on something I didn’t mention, Bring Your Own Mech. You like mechas? Keep an eye out there.

You can also find me @Dustehill. . Also, like, I make games. So go to itch.io.dustehill. I’m working on some other stuff, it’s just, you know, I need to, like, not be working on my real life job. And you know, I have to do that. 

[01:08:01] Aki: Hi, I’m Aki. Um, you can find me all over the internet at some variation of akinomi_art, where I do a lot of things, too many things. I have a problem with saying no. You can check out my award-winning Pathfinder 2e podcast @GobletsandGays, we talked about it a lot.

Currently, as of this recording, we are releasing Alien Season 2: Mother, May I? Navaar is on it. And I’m just saying you should check that out for like, really good bad decisions and Dusty’s poor, poor, poor, poor, poor, poor, poor, poor, poor luck. And then afterwards, we have Campaign 2, which is still going to be Pathfinder 2e, except we’re going to Remaster that edition.

You should also keep an eye on, uh, Goblets and Gays Twitch as we are releasing new things. We have our first streamed AP coming up, which is a Last of Eden’s Vices. Then afterwards we have a, maybe a Pathfinder project or something? I don’t know. Ooh, woo. Check it out. Yeah, exactly. Me personally, uh, another project I’m doing, I am all over Nameless Domain. But if you want, if you want another Pathfinder 2e Remastered Edition project, wow, maybe you should check out for that. I mentioned it earlier. So, so, I’m just saying, just, you know, just follow us there. God, I’m in a lot of other things that Alyssa can tell you what I’m on because I follow them everywhere! Yeah!

[01:09:21] Alyssa: Yeah, and I’m Alyssa. You can find me online at adisasterqueer. In addition to Goblets and Gays and An Unwavering Force, it feels a little sacrilegious to plug a 5e project on here, but Akino and I — this is why Aki left it to me!– Akino and I are on a 5e stream most Wednesdays called Mistlost at themandii’s Twitch channel.

It is a very homebrew world about yeah, just some very– I’m the only terrible person. Some really nice guys and me. And in, yeah, in addition to Mother May I and our second Pathfinder 2e main campaign on Goblets and Gays, I am a part of a couple other Goblets and Gays podcast projects that will be coming out eventually, which are in different systems and are very exciting.

[01:10:26] Esther: And Navaar, do you have something you’d like to announce? 

[01:10:29] Navaar: I don’t actually. I’m just kidding. Hi, I’m Navaar, um, I’ve been adopted into this trio, we are now a quadruple…? 

[01:10:39] Alyssa: Quartet! 

[01:10:42] Navaar: Quartet! Yeah, there you go, we’re a quartet. And we go everywhere together. So yeah, you can find me on An Unwavering Force, on Goblets and Gays, playing Tank, who’s incredible. He’s a pilot, he looks like Michael Jai White, legally distinct Michael Jai White, for legal reasons.

And also, you can find me on Secret Nerd Podcast, where I have made my miraculous return after a year of saying I was going to do so. But did I come back with the bang? Yes, I did. We did a panel interview, we talked about audio editing for actual plays. And then, I dropped an Actual Play! And it’s using the system that I created, and the game that I created called The Corrupted. And it’s very narrative-focused, audio-drama-esque actual play. Um, so if that’s your thing, and you like apocalypses and drama and being sad, and loving characters that are gonna inevitably make you sad because it’s a survival horror podcast, then you should listen to it. It’s really good in my opinion, in my humble opinion. So yeah, you can find me on social media at Navaar, @NavaarSNP, like Secret Nerd Podcast. and you can find the podcast at @SecretNrdSocial.

And that’s it. Oh, if you want to buy The Corrupted, also I guess I should say, go to plusoneexp.com, and then just look up The Corrupted. Because there is a link, but it’s complicated to say, and it’s easier if you just search it. 

[01:12:11] Esther: For our listeners’ benefit, y’all can’t see the nods, the like, enthusiastic nods when Navaar was like, I think this AP is really good.

Having heard several episodes, yes, it is! It is phenomenal. 

[01:12:25] Alyssa: It’s so good! 

[01:12:26] Esther: It’s so good, y’all. Check it out, and you will not be disappointed. I am like, hawking this show to absolutely everybody I know. It’s, it’s so good. 

Yeah, you can — you all know! You can find me everywhere online @dungeonminister. And more importantly, you can find Knwo Direction online @KnowDirection, primarily on Blueky, YouTube, and Mastodon, and at our Discord server, which you are welcome to join and chat with us about Pathfinder and many other TTRPG and life things. And yeah, I think, I think that wraps up my spiel. 

Y’all, thank you so much for joining us. This has been so much fun, and you will have to come back someday, please. 

[01:13:13] Dusty: Say the word. 

[01:13:16] Navaar: When we wrap up An Unwavering Force in four years! [everyone laughs]

[01:13:23] Dusty: You think Onhar will live that long? 

[01:13:26] Navaar: I said when we wrap up the show! Who knows what’s going to happen with that poor child. 

[01:13:30] Alyssa: I mean, that could still be a week, like. 

[01:13:33] Navaar: So true. Especially if we introduce crit cards. So yeah, that’s it. Thanks y’all. 

[01:13:38] Dusty: I’m waving to the microphone. 

[01:13:39] Aki: Me too. 

[01:13:40] Alyssa: Wave to the microphone. Bye. 

Ryan Costello

What started as one gamer wanting to talk about his love of a game grew into a podcast network. Ryan founded what would become the Know Direction Podcast network with Jason "Jay" Dubsky, his friend and fellow 3.5 enthusiast. They and their game group moved on to Pathfinder, and the Know Direction podcast network was born. Now married and a father, Ryan continues to serve the network as the director of logistics and co-host of Upshift podcast, dedicated to the Essence20 RPG system he writes for and helped design. You can find out more about Ryan and the history of the network in this episode of Presenting: http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2021/01/presenting-ryan-costello/